Bijas and Other Seed Sounds

The "Hindu gods" associated with the bij aksharas aren't gods in the
western religion sense. They are metaphors for qualities of nature that
exist at the transcendental level. That's one thing the TMO has right.
However the concept did not originate with them and has been around for
centuries.

Willy is trying to make a dogma out of TM.

Post by willytex
Bija 'mantras', by definition, have no semantic meaning -
that's why they're called 'mantras' instead of being called
'words'. If the bijas were Sanskrit words, there would be
no need for a definition of them, since their meaning would
be obvious to anyone who could read a Sanskrit lexicon.
So, let's review: in basic TM you get the single seed
sound (bija) and the fertilizer, and you get the simple
instructions for the correct angle to dive. You do NOT get
any supposed 'nicknames of the gods', or any esoteric
metaphysics or any promises to reach enlightenment in
5-7 years. You only get one single bija mantra in TM
initation.
"...it has now been established that at least two of the
most sacred bija-mantras, out of the fifteen, contained in
the Sound Arya La Hari, are in fact, TM bija-mantras.
Now, if the Adi Shankara wrote the Sounda, then he must
have included the fifteen bijas contained within, would he
not?"
From: Willytex
Subject: Guru Dev and Mantrayana
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
Date: December 17, 2003
http://tinyurl.com/ykp6rhs
"Bija mantras issued by TM are ''Sri Vidya'' bija mantras.
To be fair, I won't go into what they are, but if one listens
to all TM mantras, except for 2, they are 2 or 3 syllable,
and this is a very important component of the
technique..."
From: Billy Smith
Subject: Re: Guru Dev and "Sri Vidya"
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
Date: April 22, 2003
http://tinyurl.com/ye8my2
"You are getting "warmer" when it comes to understanding
TM's origins with your posts regarding the Shankaracharya
tradition and its practice of Srividya..."
From: James Duffy
Subject: Re: TM: Siva Sutra
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental,
alt.yoga, alt.meditation
Date: September 21, 2003
http://tinyurl.com/yjwa2yr

willytex

2009-11-27 17:19:00 UTC

Post by Bhairitu
The "Hindu gods" associated with the bij
aksharas aren't gods in the western religion
sense.

In TM instruction, none of the Hindu Gods or
gods are mentioned, real or imagined, even if
they are associated in some people's minds
with bija mantras. That's my point.

The use of bija mantras as aids to meditation
were used before the rise of the devotional
sects in India. But, I should point out that
the term 'gods' refers to the deified heroes of
Indian mythology, the devatas, not to the 'Ista
Devata', the Transcendental Person, God
Purusha.

The devatas, the household or sylvan deities,
were probably real historical people such as
Rama, Ramchandra, Krishana, Vasudeva or
Devaki.

The Indian devatas are in addition to the
supernal Devas such as Surya, Indra or Vishnu,
which personified the forces of nature. In
contrast, devatas belong to earth and do not
share in the charateristics of Devas or the
Supernal Gods of Hinduism.

Post by Bhairitu
They are metaphors for qualities of nature

It is disrepectful to say that the devatas are
mere yakshis dwelling in the kadamba tree. It
is from ignorance that anyone would deny the
Transcendental Person, mentioned in the
Vedanta. The idea that the gods are merely
qualities of nature is not supported by the Adi
Shankaracharya.

Post by Bhairitu
that exist at the transcendental level.

This is also incorrect - God, Purusha, is the
Transcendental Person, according to the Indian
Upanishads. It is a mistake to think that God,
the Transcendental Person, is not not real -
this is a nefarious, nihilist notion not
supported by the Vedanta scriptures. Only a
foolish person would worship a God that wasn't
real. It doesn't even make any sense.

Post by Bhairitu
That's one thing the TMO has right.

In TM instruction, nothing is said about the
Gods being metaphors or states of
consciousness, that was my point. You are
making things up again. Don't mix up
metaphysics with basic TM instruction.

Post by Bhairitu
However the concept did not originate with
them and has been around for centuries.

The only famous person in India to deny the
reality of the Transcendal Person was Carvaka
of the Hair Blanket. He denied the reality of
the Transcendental Person, but his sect died
out a long time ago, before the composition of
the Upanishads. All the authors of the
Upanishads were Transcendentalists.

Post by Bhairitu
Willy is trying to make a dogma out of TM.

Like I said, the association of the TM bija
mantras with the Hindu Gods or demi-Gods is
not mentioned in the TM Checking Notes or in
any TM Introductory lecture. This mis-information
was posted many times on Usenet by
discredited TM Teachers.

From: John Manning
Subject: Re: Maharishi's TM mantras
Forum: Yahoo! TMControversy
Date: Monday July 29, 2002
Message 1037

The word "NamaH" has the semantic meaning
of "I bow down to...". My original mantra has
the 'associated meaning', "Saraswati", a wonderful
Goddess. Adding them together, beginning with
NamaH (as it was taught to me in my advanced
meditation technique), it translates to "I bow
down to Saraswati"...

Bhairitu

2009-11-27 21:57:29 UTC

As a so-called "expert" on TM you seem to forget that Maharishi's
teaching was what is known as "impersonal" school. It's about "the
relative" and the "absolute."

However that is a little too difficult for simple village people to
understand so the rishis "personified" those concepts. That is the
"personal" school and uses "devas" etc as metaphors.

Post by Bhairitu
The "Hindu gods" associated with the bij
aksharas aren't gods in the western religion
sense.

In TM instruction, none of the Hindu Gods or
gods are mentioned, real or imagined, even if
they are associated in some people's minds
with bija mantras. That's my point.
The use of bija mantras as aids to meditation
were used before the rise of the devotional
sects in India. But, I should point out that
the term 'gods' refers to the deified heroes of
Indian mythology, the devatas, not to the 'Ista
Devata', the Transcendental Person, God
Purusha.
The devatas, the household or sylvan deities,
were probably real historical people such as
Rama, Ramchandra, Krishana, Vasudeva or
Devaki.
The Indian devatas are in addition to the
supernal Devas such as Surya, Indra or Vishnu,
which personified the forces of nature. In
contrast, devatas belong to earth and do not
share in the charateristics of Devas or the
Supernal Gods of Hinduism.

Post by Bhairitu
They are metaphors for qualities of nature

Post by Bhairitu
that exist at the transcendental level.

Post by Bhairitu
That's one thing the TMO has right.

In TM instruction, nothing is said about the
Gods being metaphors or states of
consciousness, that was my point. You are
making things up again. Don't mix up
metaphysics with basic TM instruction.

Post by Bhairitu
However the concept did not originate with
them and has been around for centuries.

Post by Bhairitu
Willy is trying to make a dogma out of TM.

Like I said, the association of the TM bija
mantras with the Hindu Gods or demi-Gods is
not mentioned in the TM Checking Notes or in
any TM Introductory lecture. This mis-information
was posted many times on Usenet by
discredited TM Teachers.
From: John Manning
Subject: Re: Maharishi's TM mantras
Forum: Yahoo! TMControversy
Date: Monday July 29, 2002
Message 1037
The word "NamaH" has the semantic meaning
of "I bow down to...". My original mantra has
the 'associated meaning', "Saraswati", a wonderful
Goddess. Adding them together, beginning with
NamaH (as it was taught to me in my advanced
meditation technique), it translates to "I bow
down to Saraswati"...

willytex

2009-11-30 17:14:37 UTC

Post by Bhairitu
However that is a little too difficult for simple
village people to understand...

'Simple village people' understand that the Ultimate
Reality is One Reality - that's easy to understand:
there is One reality, not many realities; there is
no duality - that's pretty simple and basic.

Post by Bhairitu
...so the rishis "personified" those concepts.

In the Upanishads the Ultimate Reality is described
as Unitary, not devided into personalities - the
Upanishadic thinkers did not personify the One Truth,
they called it by a neuter term - Brahman.

The Vedas were monotheistic not polytheistic. The idea
of polytheism came much later with the formation of
the devotional sects.

Post by Bhairitu
That is the "personal" school and uses "devas" etc
as metaphors.

According to the Dualist schools, the Transcendental
Person is a real person, not just an personification of
the forces of nature. They do not ascribe to the Advaita
theory of Maya propounded by the Adi Shankara.

Bhairitu

2009-12-01 01:09:58 UTC

BTW, I stopped off at the local Indian grocery and chatted about this
for a bit with the folks there. They're not yogis but understand mantra
concepts and we had a great discussion. Maybe Willy can learn something
by visiting his local Indian grocery. ;)

They agreed you don't give the public agni mantras but calming mantras.

Post by Bhairitu
However that is a little too difficult for simple
village people to understand...

'Simple village people' understand that the Ultimate
there is One reality, not many realities; there is
no duality - that's pretty simple and basic.

Post by Bhairitu
...so the rishis "personified" those concepts.

In the Upanishads the Ultimate Reality is described
as Unitary, not devided into personalities - the
Upanishadic thinkers did not personify the One Truth,
they called it by a neuter term - Brahman.
The Vedas were monotheistic not polytheistic. The idea
of polytheism came much later with the formation of
the devotional sects.

Post by Bhairitu
That is the "personal" school and uses "devas" etc
as metaphors.

willytex

2009-12-01 17:53:43 UTC

Post by Bhairitu
I stopped off at the local Indian grocery
and chatted about this for a bit with the
folks there. They're not yogis but
understand mantra concepts and we had a
great discussion. Maybe Willy can learn
something by visiting his local Indian
grocery.

Maybe, but most Indians don't know much about
'bija' mantras. The vast majority of Indians
belong to devotional sects, and they don't use any
tantric yoga bijas, which are considered to be
beyond the pale of Vedic teaching.

For example, one of the largest Hindu temples
outside India is about a mile from my place and
they are opposed to any tantric practices using
bija mantras.

So, if your corner grocer starts talking about
bijas, they should be highly suspect - tantric
practices are esoteric. They are not revealed
or referenced in most normal situations outside
the teaching environment. By definition, bija
mantras are secret and no self-respecting chela
would talk about them to a grocery clerk.

Post by Bhairitu
They agreed you don't give the public agni
mantras but calming mantras.

There seems to be some confusion between 'bija'
mantras and mantras. Bija mantras are tantric
sounds given in initiation by a guru to a chela -
'mantras' are Sanskrit words found in the Vedas
and in Sanskrit dictionaries.

There are no bijas mentioned in the Rig Veda.

Most Indians have nothing to do with left-handed
Kaula-type tantric practices - these kinds of
activities are not approved for use in most Indian
schools or grocery stores.

Bhairitu

2009-12-01 20:32:08 UTC

You're missing my point. Even though they run a store the grocery
owners are probably Brahman caste and knowing stuff like this was part
of their catechism. The guy even mentioned another method I had not
heard of before of selecting a mantra.

Yes there are secret things about tantric practices but what I'm saying
here is very general knowledge. It may not be the way that the folks
down the street from you do but it is fairly well known in India and you
can find it written up in some books. Forget the ones by Americans
outside of people like Svoboda and Frawley and a few others that
actually have been initiated into tantra. Some of the other books were
written by spectators and not participants.

Maybe, but most Indians don't know much about
'bija' mantras. The vast majority of Indians
belong to devotional sects, and they don't use any
tantric yoga bijas, which are considered to be
beyond the pale of Vedic teaching.
For example, one of the largest Hindu temples
outside India is about a mile from my place and
they are opposed to any tantric practices using
bija mantras.
So, if your corner grocer starts talking about
bijas, they should be highly suspect - tantric
practices are esoteric. They are not revealed
or referenced in most normal situations outside
the teaching environment. By definition, bija
mantras are secret and no self-respecting chela
would talk about them to a grocery clerk.

Post by Bhairitu
They agreed you don't give the public agni
mantras but calming mantras.

There seems to be some confusion between 'bija'
mantras and mantras. Bija mantras are tantric
sounds given in initiation by a guru to a chela -
'mantras' are Sanskrit words found in the Vedas
and in Sanskrit dictionaries.
There are no bijas mentioned in the Rig Veda.
Most Indians have nothing to do with left-handed
Kaula-type tantric practices - these kinds of
activities are not approved for use in most Indian
schools or grocery stores.

willytex

2009-12-03 15:34:16 UTC

You're missing my point. Even though they
run a store the grocery owners are probably
Brahman caste and knowing stuff like this
was part of their catechism.

Maybe so, but I've never heard of anyone
from the Brahman caste running a grocery
store and talking to a stranger abour the
esoteric and secret tantra bija mantras.
But anything is possible, I guess.

There are lots of Indian-run grocery stores
around here, but none of the clerks want to
talk about left-handed tantricism, especially
when their wives are around. So, I wouldn't
believe much an Indian store clerk says
about tantric bija mantras.

In fact, I wouldn't believe much anybody
says about tantric bija mantras, unless
they've practice some form of tantric yoga
like TM or maybe PowerTouch Yoga, where
they've actually been able to experience the
tantric experience. But even then, most
people have no idea where thier bija mantra
came from or why it's used in meditation.

But in general, I like talking to Indian
store clerks, unless they're from a devotional
sect, in which case I just say 'namaeste'
and 'namaeste'.

Bhairitu

2009-12-03 18:03:10 UTC

You're missing my point. Even though they
run a store the grocery owners are probably
Brahman caste and knowing stuff like this
was part of their catechism.

Maybe so, but I've never heard of anyone
from the Brahman caste running a grocery
store and talking to a stranger abour the
esoteric and secret tantra bija mantras.
But anything is possible, I guess.
There are lots of Indian-run grocery stores
around here, but none of the clerks want to
talk about left-handed tantricism, especially
when their wives are around. So, I wouldn't
believe much an Indian store clerk says
about tantric bija mantras.
In fact, I wouldn't believe much anybody
says about tantric bija mantras, unless
they've practice some form of tantric yoga
like TM or maybe PowerTouch Yoga, where
they've actually been able to experience the
tantric experience. But even then, most
people have no idea where thier bija mantra
came from or why it's used in meditation.
But in general, I like talking to Indian
store clerks, unless they're from a devotional
sect, in which case I just say 'namaeste'
and 'namaeste'.

I know Indians who came here to go to college and got engineering
degrees. Many of them are Brahman caste or basically intellectuals.
They get fed up with working for corporations so took their savings and
bought stores so they could work for themselves. One I know ran a video
rental store. Others set up Indian grocery stores. They wanted to work
for themselves. Maybe some started their own software company (think
Hotmail for instance). Some of them once their kids are through college
sell the business and retire.

Willy, you are SO NAIVE. You don't know tantra and you don't know
Indians and their culture. You just sit on the sidelines rather than
participate. I am a tantric and know what the tradition is about. Fine
if the blind here want to elect you their blind leader. I'm just trying
to share what I know of the tradition and dispell myths and disinformation.

But saying all this will do no good. We've known "Willy the troll" for
years. He doesn't do this much on FFL because his ass will get kicked
there by more than just me.

Don't you just hate being the "village idiot?"

willytex

2009-12-04 17:01:37 UTC

Post by Bhairitu
You don't know tantra and you don't
know Indians and their culture.

You are incorrect; I've been to India
and I've been friends with Indians for
many years. I live a mile from one of
the largest Indian temples outside
India. I visit the temple on all the
Hindu religious festivals and
celebrations. I've studied with two
Indian tantric yoga teachers for many
years and two Buddhist tantric yoga
teachers. I've read over 400 books on
Indian religions, 200 of which are in
my own library.

Post by Bhairitu
You just sit on the sidelines rather
than participate. I am a tantric and
know what the tradition is about.
Fine if the blind here want to elect
you their blind leader.

Maybe so, but you didn't seem to know
where the TM bija mantras came from;
you didn't seem to be aware of Guru
Dev's connection to the Sri Vidya tradition.

And you don't seem to be informed about
the Buddhist tantric tradition at all.
Which is strange, considering you live
near one of the largest Buddhist tantric
ashrams in the world.

Post by Bhairitu
I'm just trying to share what I know
of the tradition and dispell myths
and disinformation.

Thanks for shring.

Post by Bhairitu
But saying all this will do no good.
We've known "Willy the troll" for
years. He doesn't do this much on FFL
because his ass will get kicked there
by more than just me.

You don't know everything, that's obvious.

Post by Bhairitu
Don't you just hate being the "village
idiot?"

Smear tactics won't win any debates here
anymore, Barry.

Bhairitu

2009-12-04 19:57:01 UTC

Post by Bhairitu
You don't know tantra and you don't
know Indians and their culture.

Which means you, being suck a vata type, read 400 books and quickly
forgot what was in them. But book learning is not the way you learn
this stuff. You can get a taste from books and sometimes more if you
can read between the lines.

So you visit temples. You are still a spectator. As for teachers there
are teachers and then there are teachers. There are lots of them who
don't know anything but claim they do. India is rife with charlatans.
That's why it is good to travel with people in the know.

Post by Bhairitu
You just sit on the sidelines rather
than participate. I am a tantric and
know what the tradition is about.
Fine if the blind here want to elect
you their blind leader.

Maybe so, but you didn't seem to know
where the TM bija mantras came from;
you didn't seem to be aware of Guru
Dev's connection to the Sri Vidya tradition.

The origin of the bij aksharas are lost in antiquity. I was certainly
aware of Brahmananda Saraswati's connection to the Sri Vidya tradition.
But that's not what Maharishi taught.

Post by willytex
And you don't seem to be informed about
the Buddhist tantric tradition at all.
Which is strange, considering you live
near one of the largest Buddhist tantric
ashrams in the world.

I don't care that much about the Buddhist tantric tradition. You have
to pick and stick to your path. Buddhism never did anything for me.

Post by Bhairitu
I'm just trying to share what I know
of the tradition and dispell myths
and disinformation.

Thanks for shring.

Post by Bhairitu
But saying all this will do no good.
We've known "Willy the troll" for
years. He doesn't do this much on FFL
because his ass will get kicked there
by more than just me.

You don't know everything, that's obvious.

I don't claim to know everything (no one can). But I will be happy to
share what I do know that isn't secret. I'm not trying to be a blowhard
who runs around proclaiming "according to such and such book this is the
way it is."

But you didn't even understand that Indians here in America could run a
grocery even if they were Brahman. You seem to have this naive idea
that all Brahmans are priests.

Most of the Indian tantrics in this country are practicing astrologers.

Post by Bhairitu
Don't you just hate being the "village
idiot?"

Smear tactics won't win any debates here
anymore, Barry.

We figured out a long time ago you are a masochist who enjoys getting
beat up on the Internet and hence you troll for it.

willytex

2009-12-05 18:07:00 UTC

Post by Bhairitu
You don't know tantra and you don't
know Indians and their culture.

I've studied with two Indian tantric
yoga teachers for many years and two
Buddhist tantric yoga teachers.

So you visit temples.

Yes, I've visited many tantric temples,
one of which is about a mile from here,
one of the largest tantric temples outside
India.

I'm also a frequent particpant at the
Superradiance Dome, a very large tantric
temple, at the TM Village which is located
just outside Austin, Texas.

Post by Bhairitu
You are still a spectator.

But tantra yoga practice isn't a spectator
sport. In order to practice tantric yoga,
you must be a practicing tantric yogi.

You must be getting the bija mantra from
a tantric yoga master and follow the
instructions of the guru and the those
found in the Tantras - the manuals of
practice.

You must go through an ritual initiation to
get the bija mantra, then you must perform
a whole program of practice, at least twice
a day, with frequent checking from your
teacher.

I've seen no evidence that you've
completed any of the above, and judging
by your posts, you don't seem to have
much to offer in the way of tantric teaching.

[snip]

...but you didn't seem to know where
the TM bija mantras came from; you didn't
seem to be aware of Guru Dev's connection
to the Sri Vidya tradition.

The origin of the bij aksharas are lost in
antiquity.

They may be lost to you, but not lost to the
tantric teachers I got my bija mantras from.

Post by Bhairitu
I was certainly aware of Brahmananda
Saraswati's connection to the Sri Vidya
tradition.

Maybe so, but you didn't have anything to
say about the subject when I brought it up
before.

Subject: Auspicious Wisdom
http://tinyurl.com/y8f6p47

Post by Bhairitu
But that's not what Maharishi taught.

The TM that Maharishi taught, including the
tantric bija mantra for Saraswati, is almost
pure tantra. You failed to respond to this
subject as well.

Subject: Maharishi and Kashmir Saivism
http://tinyurl.com/yasv8rp

And you don't seem to be informed about
the Buddhist tantric tradition at all.
Which is strange, considering you live
near one of the largest Buddhist tantric
ashrams in the world.

I don't care that much about the Buddhist
tantric tradition. You have to pick and
stick to your path. Buddhism never did
anything for me.

That might explain why you didn't know the
origin of the TM bija mantras, because you
thought the bijas were 'lost in antiquity'.

Hindu tantricism is almost totally derived
from the Buddhist tantric tradition of the
Mahasiddhas and Nathsiddhas on central
India.

And although the tantric bija mantras are
esoteric, many of them are derived from
common household sounds found all over
India.

Subject: Phat!
http://tinyurl.com/ye34rnq

But you must be getting them in an
initiation from a tantric master.

Bhairitu

2009-12-05 20:17:23 UTC

Post by Bhairitu
You don't know tantra and you don't
know Indians and their culture.

I've studied with two Indian tantric
yoga teachers for many years and two
Buddhist tantric yoga teachers.

So you visit temples.

Yes, I've visited many tantric temples,
one of which is about a mile from here,
one of the largest tantric temples outside
India.

And what exactly is the name of that temple? I have my doubts about it
being a tantric temple. We have several Hindu temples around here and
none would claim to be "tantric." There's a big one in Livermore I've
visited a few times. There is also a Shiva temple in nearby Concord but
I've never visited it.

If there were "tantric temples" in the US my guru would know about them
not to mention other people like Hart DeFouw and Robert Svoboda (who is
a native Texan).

Post by willytex
I'm also a frequent particpant at the
Superradiance Dome, a very large tantric
temple, at the TM Village which is located
just outside Austin, Texas.

So you're saying TM is tantric. I don't care either way and you may be
correct. Saying that Brahmananda Saraswati was of tantric lineage
tended to stir up a few people here mainly because they think tantra is
black magic.

Post by Bhairitu
You are still a spectator.

We don't use "manuals". The tradition is oral. When we use the term
"Garana" it doesn't mean a physical book.

Post by willytex
You must go through an ritual initiation to
get the bija mantra, then you must perform
a whole program of practice, at least twice
a day, with frequent checking from your
teacher.

So you say. But you have learned my tradition have you? You don't know
what I learned. I've learned a left hand tradition for householders.
You are often quoting things you've read in books on the right hand
tradition for renunciates.

Post by willytex
I've seen no evidence that you've
completed any of the above, and judging
by your posts, you don't seem to have
much to offer in the way of tantric teaching.

I don't know what your "expectations" are. I'm certainly not going to
spill the teachings I've learned to become a "Sidh Tantric."

Post by willytex
[snip]

...but you didn't seem to know where
the TM bija mantras came from; you didn't
seem to be aware of Guru Dev's connection
to the Sri Vidya tradition.

The origin of the bij aksharas are lost in
antiquity.

They may be lost to you, but not lost to the
tantric teachers I got my bija mantras from.

Post by Bhairitu
I was certainly aware of Brahmananda
Saraswati's connection to the Sri Vidya
tradition.

Maybe so, but you didn't have anything to
say about the subject when I brought it up
before.

There are many paths. I am a practical person and don't have much time
to catalog all the other paths I'm not on.

Post by willytex
Subject: Auspicious Wisdom
http://tinyurl.com/y8f6p47

Post by Bhairitu
But that's not what Maharishi taught.

The TM that Maharishi taught, including the
tantric bija mantra for Saraswati, is almost
pure tantra. You failed to respond to this
subject as well.

Sure I'll except the teaching is tantric in origin. But now you've got
bunch of Marshybots mad at you because you aren't saying it's Vedic and
really saying that Brahmananda Saraswati was a tantric which I believe
other biographies, possibly even MMY's BG, talks about. It seemed to be
omitted in the biography that the people here wanting to turn him into
some kind of religious icon linked to.

As you know there would be nothing wrong with BS being a tantric.

Post by willytex
Subject: Maharishi and Kashmir Saivism
http://tinyurl.com/yasv8rp

And you don't seem to be informed about
the Buddhist tantric tradition at all.
Which is strange, considering you live
near one of the largest Buddhist tantric
ashrams in the world.

I don't care that much about the Buddhist
tantric tradition. You have to pick and
stick to your path. Buddhism never did
anything for me.

Nah, I believe these teachings predate Buddhism. I also don't think
they were "cognized" either. They are the result of past
experimentation focusing on the effects of sounds or "Nada Yoga."

Post by willytex
And although the tantric bija mantras are
esoteric, many of them are derived from
common household sounds found all over
India.

Commons sounds like the door opening? That's laughable. Who knows it
could also just as well been given to us by alien beings. You can't
prove or disprove it.

Post by willytex
Subject: Phat!
http://tinyurl.com/ye34rnq
But you must be getting them in an
initiation from a tantric master.

There is an initiation into tantra and the rest is teachings. I guess
if the Internet is going to be your guru your learning will be limited.

willytex

2009-12-06 16:35:27 UTC

Post by Bhairitu
And what exactly is the name of that temple?

Barsana Dham is located in Hays County, just
outside Austin, Texas - Shree Raseshwari Radha
Rani Temple, founded by a direct disciple of Guru
Dev. It's a 'rasavada' bhakti temple centered on
devotion to Radha. Have you read about the
rasavada dance of Krishna with the gopis? It's
a perfect example of tantric devotion - 'ras' in
Sanskrit means 'nectar'. Radharani is 'shakti'.

Post by Bhairitu
I have my doubts about it being a tantric
temple.

Well, I guess it all depends on how you define
'tantric temple'. You didn't specify, as usual,
what you mean by the term tantric. So, let's
review the definition of tantra:

Tantra is a Sanskrit word that denotes a
'thread' of continuity of religious philosopphy
and practice according to which 'Shakti' is
regarded as the process of energized evolution,
in which Ultimate Reality is considered to be
pure consciousness, pure being and pure bliss.

Post by Bhairitu
We have several Hindu temples around here and
none would claim to be "tantric." There's a
big one in Livermore I've visited a few times.
There is also a Shiva temple in nearby Concord
but I've never visited it.

One of the largest tantric temples in California
'Odiyan Copper Mountain Mandala', founded by
Tarthang Tulku, and the Nyingma Institude, which
is located in Berkeley. They practice the Tibetan
Vajrayana form of tantrism, which predates most
Hindu forms of tantra.

http://www.odiyan.org/

http://www.nyingmainstitute.com/

Post by Bhairitu
If there were "tantric temples" in the US my
guru would know about them not to mention
other people like Hart DeFouw and Robert
Svoboda (who is a native Texan).

Maybe they don't know about the Tibetan forms of
tantra. Your guru didn't seem to know anything
about the origen of the TM bija mantras or the
TM bija mantra of Saraswati. Or, maybe he didn't
want to tell you about it.

According to what I've read, Guru Dev's master was
an adherent of the Saraswati tradition of Sri Vidya.

Post by willytex
I'm also a frequent particpant at the
Superradiance Dome, a very large tantric
temple, at the TM Village which is located
just outside Austin, Texas.

So you're saying TM is tantric.

The practice of 'TM', like Zen or Chan, and
Dzogchen is almost pure tantra. These are
spiritual practices that aim at liberation from
ignorance and rebirth through yogic means.
Tantra entails the extensive use of meditation
utilizing bija mantras with a reliance on the guru
and the guruparampara.

Post by willytex
You must be getting the bija mantra from
a tantric yoga master and follow the
instructions of the guru and the those
found in the Tantras - the manuals of
practice.

We don't use "manuals".

The scriptures of tantra are the Tantras, manuals
describing the use of the bija mantras. For the
Sri Vidya, one of the main scriptures is the
Saundaryalahari, with the sixteen Sri Vidya
bija mantras. All the tantric traditions of
India, both Buddhist and Hindu, make use of the
Tantras.

Post by Bhairitu
Sure I'll except the teaching is tantric in
origin. But now you've got bunch of Marshybots
mad at you because you aren't saying it's Vedic
and really saying that Brahmananda Saraswati
was a tantric which I believe other biographies,
possibly even MMY's BG, talks about. It seemed
to be omitted in the biography that the people
here wanting to turn him into some kind of
religious icon linked to.

Apparently Guru Dev owned a Sri Yantra encrusted
with rubies. This has been reported by Swami
Rama who met Guru Dev in the Vindhya Mountains.
According to Swami Rama, Guru Dev taught the
principles of Sri Vidya - tantric yoga. There seems
to be a case of denial or just ignorance, in the
accounts by most TM Teachers. Don't know why.
But lots of people are practicing tantric yoga, but
they don't like to use that term.

It has already been established that the origin
of the TM bija mantras is the tantric Sri Vidya
tradition of the Adi Shankaracharya. It has also
been established that the guru of the Mahesh
Yogi was an adherent of the Saraswati parampara
which is based at Sringeri, where the Sri Yantra
is ensconed on the mandir.

According to David Frawley, the practices of
tantric yoga have their origin in the Vedas. This
makes sense because the Vedas use rituals and
other forms of tantric practice such as yantra,
mantra, asana, and yoga. Frawley sees a long
continuity of tantric practice in India since before
the arrival of the Aryan speakers. According to
Frawley, there is evidence of shakti and yoga
practice in the Indus Valley Civilization.

Post by willytex
And although the tantric bija mantras are
esoteric, many of them are derived from
common household sounds found all over
India.

Commons sounds like the door opening?

Maybe so, and like the door closing with a crack
sound and the sound of the Indian 'phata-phata',
a three-wheel conveyance, heard all over Delhi.

Subject: Phat!
http://tinyurl.com/ye34rnq

willytex

2009-12-05 18:16:54 UTC

Post by Bhairitu
Don't you just hate being the "village
idiot?"

Smear tactics won't win any debates here
anymore, Barry.

We figured out a long time ago you are a
masochist who enjoys getting beat up on the
Internet and hence you troll for it

You probably couldn't fight your way out of a
wet paper bag. Why you're back over here I
don't know - some people just feel better
when they have someone to talk to, I guess.

Post by willytex
We've known "Willy the troll" for years. He
doesn't do this much on FFL because his ass
will get kicked there by more than just me.

We? Maybe its time for you to go back to be with
your friends on Yahoo! Groups - that's more your
speed.

Post by Bhairitu
We figured out a long time ago you are a
masochist who enjoys getting beat up on the
Internet and hence you troll for it.

You need to get some smarts, Barry: over
here on Google Groups, we're not real big on
peersonal attacks and flaming. That's why you
guys got kicked off and were sent packing over
to Yahoo! years ago.

So, maybe its time for you to take a
sabattical from posting to Google, then, in a
year or two, you could return here to dialog like
an adept, if not a gentleman. At present, you
are neither, Sir.

Bhairitu

2009-12-05 20:23:04 UTC

Post by Bhairitu
Don't you just hate being the "village
idiot?"

Smear tactics won't win any debates here
anymore, Barry.

We figured out a long time ago you are a
masochist who enjoys getting beat up on the
Internet and hence you troll for it

You probably couldn't fight your way out of a
wet paper bag. Why you're back over here I
don't know - some people just feel better
when they have someone to talk to, I guess.

Post by willytex
We've known "Willy the troll" for years. He
doesn't do this much on FFL because his ass
will get kicked there by more than just me.

We? Maybe its time for you to go back to be with
your friends on Yahoo! Groups - that's more your
speed.

Post by Bhairitu
We figured out a long time ago you are a
masochist who enjoys getting beat up on the
Internet and hence you troll for it.

You need to get some smarts, Barry: over
here on Google Groups, we're not real big on
peersonal attacks and flaming. That's why you
guys got kicked off and were sent packing over
to Yahoo! years ago.
So, maybe its time for you to take a
sabattical from posting to Google, then, in a
year or two, you could return here to dialog like
an adept, if not a gentleman. At present, you
are neither, Sir.

Hah! Nobody gets kicked off Usenet unless it is a moderated group. You
keep hiding behind the "ad homimem" attack thing because you can't stand
on your own two feet. You can't stand being called out for the fraud
and blow hard you are.

You're the one who needs some smarts but I don't know where you'll find
them in Texas. :D

willytex

2009-12-06 16:51:28 UTC

Post by Bhairitu
We figured out a long time ago you are a
masochist who enjoys getting beat up on the
Internet and hence you troll for it.

You need to get some smarts, Barry: over
here on Google Groups, we're not real big on
peersonal attacks and flaming.

You can't stand being called out for the fraud
and blow hard you are.

Hey, Bharat2, just post your comments or
arguments - you don't need to get personal. If
you got an argument to make, just make it. So
far, I haven't read anything that would cause me
to change my mind about the use of bijas and
other seed sounds used in spiritual practice.

Why are you TM Teachers always so boastful
and arrogant? Can't seem to focus on a simple
spiritual dialog without getting all bent out of
shape. Cut the bullshit!

Post by Bhairitu
You're the one who needs some smarts but I
don't know where you'll find them in Texas.

Obviously you're prejudiced against Texans, but
there is a very large Indian immigrant population
in Texas and quite a large Tibetan diaspora as
well. There are many Hindu temples, Zen Centers,
and Tibetan ashrams too. A large contingent of
Tibetan lamas visits San Antonio every year.

From: Willytex
Subject: Tibet to Texas
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
Date: April 8, 2004
http://tinyurl.com/ylf7yto

Austin Shambhala Meditation Center:
http://www.austin.shambhala.org/

Bhairitu

2009-12-09 17:54:23 UTC

Post by Bhairitu
We figured out a long time ago you are a
masochist who enjoys getting beat up on the
Internet and hence you troll for it.

You need to get some smarts, Barry: over
here on Google Groups, we're not real big on
peersonal attacks and flaming.

You can't stand being called out for the fraud
and blow hard you are.

Poor Wittle Willy
can't stand the heat
should get out of the kitchen
since he knows he's been beat.

He started the conflict
and now blaming me
poor Wittle Willy
is just dumbass silly!

willytex

2009-12-09 18:16:04 UTC

Post by willytex
I haven't read anything that would cause me
to change my mind about the use of bijas and
other seed sounds used in spiritual practice.

Poor Wittle Willy
can't stand the heat
should get out of the kitchen
since he knows he's been beat.
He started the conflict
and now blaming me
poor Wittle Willy
is just dumbass silly!

Beat at what?

You get only one bija mantra in TM.

But anyone reading this thread should know
that 'pop-tantrics' who get most of their
information about tantra from Indian store
clerks in downtown Oakland, Ca. may not
know much of anything about bija mantras
and other seed sounds.

Bhairitu

2009-12-09 19:57:18 UTC

Post by willytex
I haven't read anything that would cause me
to change my mind about the use of bijas and
other seed sounds used in spiritual practice.

Poor Wittle Willy
can't stand the heat
should get out of the kitchen
since he knows he's been beat.
He started the conflict
and now blaming me
poor Wittle Willy
is just dumbass silly!

Beat at what?
You get only one bija mantra in TM.
But anyone reading this thread should know
that 'pop-tantrics' who get most of their
information about tantra from Indian store
clerks in downtown Oakland, Ca. may not
know much of anything about bija mantras
and other seed sounds.

No dimwit, it says that everyday Indians know more about tantra than you.

Altogether now!

(3/4 Texas waltz)

Poor Wittle Willy
confused in his mind
all about tantra
from books he did find.

Poor Wittle Willy
mopping the floor
he's a janitor tantric
who's really a bore.

willytex

2009-12-09 22:22:32 UTC

Post by willytex
Beat at what?
You get only one bija mantra in TM.

No dimwit, it says that everyday Indians know
more about tantra than you.

So, what did the Indian store clerks say about
the TM bija mantras?

Bhairitu

2009-12-10 17:39:26 UTC

Post by willytex
Beat at what?
You get only one bija mantra in TM.

No dimwit, it says that everyday Indians know
more about tantra than you.

So, what did the Indian store clerks say about
the TM bija mantras?

I already told you. Look at my post on the 30th. You should at least
read my posts before you comment.

willytex

2009-12-11 01:37:59 UTC

Post by willytex
So, what did the Indian store clerks say about
the TM bija mantras?

Look at my post on the 30th...

So, what did the Indian store clerks say about the
TM bija mantra to Saraswati? The bija they use in
the Shankaracharya Saraswati Parampara; the bija
mantra the Swami Krishnananda Saraswati gave to
Guru Dev, who gave it to the Mahesh Yogi.

The bija mantra inscribed on the Sri Yantra and the
one that Shankara included in the Saundaryalahari.

I would think that any average Indian store clerk
would be knowing about that, since it's one of the
largest and most famous of the Indian traditions
and the Mahesh Yogi is one of the most famous
Indian teachers, the Beatles guru.

And why am I giving you all this information, when
you're supposed to be the insider informant? I just
reviewed all you posts to this forum, and you're
very short on information. So, I just concluded that
you didn't know where the TM bija mantras came
from.

What's your point? Can you sum up? Where am
I going wrong on this?

Bhairitu

2009-12-11 04:53:29 UTC

Post by willytex
So, what did the Indian store clerks say about
the TM bija mantras?

Look at my post on the 30th...

So, what did the Indian store clerks say about the
TM bija mantra to Saraswati? The bija they use in
the Shankaracharya Saraswati Parampara; the bija
mantra the Swami Krishnananda Saraswati gave to
Guru Dev, who gave it to the Mahesh Yogi.
The bija mantra inscribed on the Sri Yantra and the
one that Shankara included in the Saundaryalahari.
I would think that any average Indian store clerk
would be knowing about that, since it's one of the
largest and most famous of the Indian traditions
and the Mahesh Yogi is one of the most famous
Indian teachers, the Beatles guru.
And why am I giving you all this information, when
you're supposed to be the insider informant? I just
reviewed all you posts to this forum, and you're
very short on information. So, I just concluded that
you didn't know where the TM bija mantras came
from.
What's your point? Can you sum up? Where am
I going wrong on this?

Some lifetime when you're ready, grasshopper.

willytex

2009-12-11 14:41:42 UTC

So, I just concluded that you didn't know
where the TM bija mantras came from.

Some lifetime when you're ready, grasshopper.

So, let's sum up:

According to my sources, the bija mantras used
in Indian spiritual practices orginated with the
so-called Mahasiddhas, the tantric alchemists of
the Golden Age in Indian history. The Mahasiddhas
are well known in Indian history - Naga Arjuna,
and later, Tilopa and Naropa, the adepts who took
the tantric system to Tibet and founded there the
Kargyupta sect, which is the path of my teacher,
the Trungpa Tulku.

Apparently the first siddhas in India were
associated with the Nath sect - Matysyendranath,
who composed the Hath Yoga Pradipika. There is
also ample evidence to prove that the tantric
siddhas were the precursors of the Tantric
Tradition in Kashmere, the tradition of my teacher
the Swami Laksmanjoo.

According to the Shakaracharya Tradition, the Adi
Shankara visited Kashmere in the ninth century,
bringing the tantric practices to South India. At
Sringeri, the Adi established a matha for the
propogation of the tantric teachings and there he
installed the image of Saraswati, with the Sri
Yantra placed in her hand with the bija mantra of
Saraswati inscribed thereon.

But, if your average Indian store clerk is not
a member of any tantric path, it's not surprising
that they would be clueless as to the origin of the
tantric bija mantras. Obviously, they never heard
of nor ever read, the Anandalahari, which was
composed by the Adi Shankara, which includes
the sixteen tantric bijas mantras of Sri Vidya.

What is surprising is that an Indian store clerk,
who professes to know about the secret tantric
bija mantras, would not also be aware of the
Beatles guru, the Deepakage, or the Sri Sri, all
of whom teach a meditation that is transcendental
utilizing the bija mantra of Saraswati, which they
all got from the Mahesh Yogi.

Go figure.

Bhairitu

2009-12-11 16:51:01 UTC

So, I just concluded that you didn't know
where the TM bija mantras came from.

Some lifetime when you're ready, grasshopper.

According to my sources, the bija mantras used
in Indian spiritual practices orginated with the
so-called Mahasiddhas, the tantric alchemists of
the Golden Age in Indian history. The Mahasiddhas
are well known in Indian history - Naga Arjuna,
and later, Tilopa and Naropa, the adepts who took
the tantric system to Tibet and founded there the
Kargyupta sect, which is the path of my teacher,
the Trungpa Tulku.
Apparently the first siddhas in India were
associated with the Nath sect - Matysyendranath,
who composed the Hath Yoga Pradipika. There is
also ample evidence to prove that the tantric
siddhas were the precursors of the Tantric
Tradition in Kashmere, the tradition of my teacher
the Swami Laksmanjoo.
According to the Shakaracharya Tradition, the Adi
Shankara visited Kashmere in the ninth century,
bringing the tantric practices to South India. At
Sringeri, the Adi established a matha for the
propogation of the tantric teachings and there he
installed the image of Saraswati, with the Sri
Yantra placed in her hand with the bija mantra of
Saraswati inscribed thereon.
But, if your average Indian store clerk is not
a member of any tantric path, it's not surprising
that they would be clueless as to the origin of the
tantric bija mantras. Obviously, they never heard
of nor ever read, the Anandalahari, which was
composed by the Adi Shankara, which includes
the sixteen tantric bijas mantras of Sri Vidya.
What is surprising is that an Indian store clerk,
who professes to know about the secret tantric
bija mantras, would not also be aware of the
Beatles guru, the Deepakage, or the Sri Sri, all
of whom teach a meditation that is transcendental
utilizing the bija mantra of Saraswati, which they
all got from the Mahesh Yogi.
Go figure.

Grasshopper, the mantra Om Aingnamah is a very common Saraswati mantra
which people use in India to increase mental strength. Remember that
Saraswati is the goddess of intellect (a metaphor). Hence the
properties of the mantra increase areas of the brain. Like a professor
of astrology at Benares Hindu Univesity in India told "this mantra will
make your mind like a computer."

Another common Saraswati mantra is "Om Jai Saraswatyeh Namah." There
are probably at least 108 if not 1008 documented Saraswati mantras.

People have noted that TM'ers seem to have overstimulated intellects.
Which often makes them wander off into intellectual maya.

willytex

2009-12-11 17:35:14 UTC

Post by willytex
What is surprising is that an Indian store clerk,
who professes to know about the secret tantric
bija mantras, would not also be aware of the
Beatles guru...

People have noted that TM'ers seem to have
overstimulated intellects.

Not in your case - you seem to have very limited and
simple set of beliefs. You seem to be more in the
mystical tradition - apparently you are very suggestible
and you accept many myths not based on historical
facts.

Your Indian store clerk didn't even seem to be aware of
the fact that the monosyllable 'Om' is not used in TM
practice, and 'Om' isn't mentioned in the 'Anandalahari'
composed by the Adi Shankara. Apparently the store
clerk just made that part up.

Post by Bhairitu
Grasshopper, the mantra Om Aingnamah is a very
common Saraswati mantra which people use in India to
increase mental strength. Remember that Saraswati is
the goddess of intellect (a metaphor). Hence the
properties of the mantra increase areas of the brain.
Like a professor of astrology at Benares Hindu Univesity
in India told "this mantra will make your mind like a
computer."

So, I guess we can conclude that you and the store
clerks just don't know much about Indian history. They
certainly didn't seem to know much about TM, and I'm
beginning to think you don't either.

Post by Bhairitu
Another common Saraswati mantra is "Om Jai
Saraswatyeh Namah." There are probably at least
108 if not 1008 documented Saraswati mantras.

In TM you get only one mantra and that's all a person
needs in order to transcend. The Sanskrit term 'Namah'
and 'Jai' are not bija mantras - they are words with
semantic meanings, not bija mantras.

Bhairitu

2009-12-11 19:49:41 UTC

Post by willytex
What is surprising is that an Indian store clerk,
who professes to know about the secret tantric
bija mantras, would not also be aware of the
Beatles guru...

People have noted that TM'ers seem to have
overstimulated intellects.

Hah! Folks who know me would say I had an overstimulated intellect way
before I did TM. Top of my class. Lowering the grade curve in math
class. I was looking for more intuition less intellect. You can go
really offbase depending on the intellect. Intuition can keep you on
track.

Post by willytex
Your Indian store clerk didn't even seem to be aware of
the fact that the monosyllable 'Om' is not used in TM
practice, and 'Om' isn't mentioned in the 'Anandalahari'
composed by the Adi Shankara. Apparently the store
clerk just made that part up.

I made them aware of it. It was a nice chat and I'm sure we'll have
many more in the future. Keep in mind that younger Indians like the
engineers that used to work for me were fleeing what they thought of as
"Indian superstition." They wanted to be "very western." But they were
still Brahmans and knew the catechism.

So, I guess we can conclude that you and the store
clerks just don't know much about Indian history. They
certainly didn't seem to know much about TM, and I'm
beginning to think you don't either.

They were aware of TM. But as a "pop" yoga movement.

TM is much overrated and westerners who don't know much about yoga fall
for it's hype. It was fine when I taught it even at $125 but not a a
four figure amount.

Most people need a calming mantra not a stimulating one. The stimulation
caused many of the roughness problems people encountered. A stimulating
mantra which is heating like Gayatri is wonderful when you start to come
down with a cold. It will warm you up and help the immune system stomp
out the cold or flu. But you have to learn that rather long mantra
first and practice it enough to give you siddhi of it.