Discussion:
MMY and TM had it all - Salvation !
(too old to reply)
Phyllis Sheehan
2004-01-25 00:25:02 UTC
Permalink
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Conned Me!


In his book "Science of Being and Art of Living"

Starting on page 50 under the heading Importance of a Proper Thought
- MMY speaks about "Why the selection of a proper thought for a
particular individual is a vital factor in the practice of
Transcendental Meditation" - My reaction to this statement and to
the Theme developed from page 50 to page 52 was that I had my very own
unique personal mantra! I'm not knocking the technique,what I am
calling into question is Maharishi's honesty!
According to Minet.org and Trancenet there are only 16 Proper
Thoughts!


Beginning right on the end of page 10 of MMY on The Bhagavad-Gita -
MMY states:- "Right action came to be regarded as a means to gain
nirvana,whereas right action is in fact the result of this state of
consciousness in freedom.
***** I genuinely believed do TM and all will be well. In the 70's TM
was full of colourful characters who really seemed to have "support of
nature,"I truly believed that MMY and TM had it all - Salvation !
Suddenly We had high prices,Levitation,flasks of hot water,and a
requirement to conform in the TM movement under His Holiness Guru
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
Where did it all go wrong?

Those of you who still have a little heart and light will agree with
me that the TM Organization is in fast decline due to the loss of warm
and compassionate teachers like John Manning !

Phyllis
Chagya
2004-01-25 22:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Conned Me!
In his book "Science of Being and Art of Living"
<<… snip … >>

[Dear Phyllis -- I agree with you and, since what you have written
will be right there on the screen, I have omitted it. I was hooked on
the opening words of SOB (yes, that's what we used to call it!) which
I now think of as "Science of Being A Con Artist"]

I hope what I have posted below won't be too long for you and others
to read. It needs more detail, but maybe others can help with that.
Certainly we have seen quite a lot of detail already about his
finances and the (don't make me laugh) "raam" ROTFL. There is some
irony and just possibly enough circumstantial "evidence" to maybe make
a few who already wonder wonder a little more. -- anyway, here is the
first draft of something I mentioned before. PLEASE REMEMBER. MY/OUR
GOAL IS NOT TO HURT PEOPLE WHO DO TM. IF YOU DO AND YOU LIKE WHAT YOU
GET FOR WHAT YOU DO, THAT'S YOUR DECISION. WE/I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO
KNOW THAT YOU HAVE HELP FUND A MAJOR CON ARTIST WHO LAUGHS AT YOU DAY
AFTER DAY (this laughing business I will post some other time).

Some friends and I have put this together for no other reason than
that there is so little truth in the organization that propagates "tm"
and in the actual tm teachings themselves. Mahesh Chandra Shrivastava,
b. 12 Jan 1917, claims to have been a totally devoted disciple of his
great guru and master Brahmanand Saraswati, Jagatguru of Jyotirmath.
He was possibly faking then and certainly is faking now.

I know Mahesh's family name because I was introduced to his brother,
J. P. Shrivastava at Rishikesh by Shantanand. Shantanand said, "This
is Maharishi's brother." And the gentleman introduced himself as J. P.
Shrivastava. (I also had the opportunity to ask some of the very
earliest initiators who also confirmed this. A friend handled Mahesh's
passport and reported to me the date of birth.)

THESE ARE THE BASIC OPERATING THEORIES:

* The idea of Mahesh beguiling mahamudra and dzogchen teachings (which
will be explained a little bit below) out of some lama or lamas
fleeing the Chinese is no stretch at all. Mahesh is an insufferable
opportunist quite capable of ripping off anyone. No one needs to
explain this to those who have watched him carefully and the
disillusioned who no longer can take him at his purported face value.

Perhaps nothing can be shown to those who cling to their delusions
about Mahesh and his mantra meditation like the doomed to straws.

* I think that Mahesh well knew that even smart people will pay almost
anything to get something for nothing – especially "hope" – and
Mahesh's claims about tm sure made it sound like something really
worth it. Of course, we all bought into the personality of Mahesh. We
probably started because he was so cute, so giggly, so beguiling, so
promising, so clever when he answered questions in his singing,
squeaky voice with that adorable accent. Those of us who attended SCI
symposia were in awe as he took every scientist and philosopher by the
hand and led him or her around to his way of seeing things. He was
truly beguiling, with the BEbeing and softness of a dove and the GUILE
of the biblical serpent. But we just couldn't see it then.

* There is a dzogchen monastery at Dehradun (not too far north and
somewhat east of Rishikesh). It was founded in the 50's. – Because we
believed everything that came out of Mahesh's mouth (CC in 3 to 5
years, levitation, that he was the closest of Guru Dev's disciples,
that he must be as cosmic as he seemed) we believed that after Guru
Dev died he indeed sat in a cave for some years until he introduced tm
to the world. I think there is more evidence that he was busy pumping
every lama and guru (Ganges River Valley saint) he could find for
whatever he could beguile from them. If he spent 13 years being Guru
Dev's factotum, then he already had a very accurate knowledge of the
who's who of the Himalayan foothills. Yet, for ourselves, we never
actually KNEW a thing. Just what was it that we thought we knew so
much about that we were so sure of Mahesh's "maharishiness"?

His Wholly Weaselness Mahesh the Fox demonstrated time and again that
he is as smart as they come, If nothing else, that was the whole
purpose behind those SCI symposia – to make sure everybody got the
picture, read my lips: I am the smartest person on the planet, these
professors and scientists nuzzle up to me AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT.

He has covered his tracks well (secrets really work [sell well] if
they are actually secrets and no one can penetrate them) and made very
sound investments – the "raam" ROTFL for example – remember, he used
your money to do this, he didn't use it to create world peace, that's
for suckers to invest in, butt-bouncing and such.

The following is not, therefore "proof" but we think it is very
convincing. (For references purposes: "I" and "we" are used
interchangeably and neither refers to one of us nor to all of us.)

1 I don't really know that Mahesh got tm from some sincere and
unsuspecting lama whom he conned, but the similarities between "tm"
and the Tibetan Buddhist teachings of mahamudra and dzogchen are quite
interesting. I have cited sources, so you can sort this out yourself,
later.

I have often enough seen him beguile the bejesus out of anyone who
knew something that he thought he might be able to use and we think
that is precisely why the Beatles got up and left Rishikesh – he was
pumping them for information: about money, about contacts, about using
them to further his interests.

One of our old time teachers (actually, he became a teacher in 2 weeks
at Lake Louise) had been a disciple of Yogananda and had told Mahesh
everything about Kriya Yoga. Mahesh said it was ok to continue doing
Kriya Yoga, but to do tm first! Then, several years later, wonders of
wonders, one of the "age of enlightenment" techniques turned out to be
one of Yogananda's techniques. CAN YOU WONDER ABOUT THE "PURITY" OF
THE TEACHING?

2 In the mahamudra and dzogchen (secret meditation methods in Tibetan
Buddhism), every teaching session begins with everybody reciting the
refuge prayer, a recitation of the great teachers of the past who
developed and handed down (preserved) these meditation teachings. CAN
YOU SAY PUJA?

3 In "Clarifying the Natural State" (available from Amazon), one of
the very great mahamudra teachers from 16th century Tibet says: "some
people take meditation to be a vacant state of mind in which the
former thought has ceased and the following thought has not yet
arisen. These ways are not embraced by vipashyana [the secret
meditation method] and so are grave faults." CAN YOU SAY PURE
CONSCIOUSNESS?

A word about "secret" here: in the Tibetan tradition, "secret" means
self-secret. It is right there in the very nature of your ability to
think a thought, but you do not see it. In order for you to see it, to
understand it, to be able to use it, you have to have a teacher point
it out to you. This is vipashyana. CAN YOU SAY, "WHAT WE LEARN IN
PRIVATE WE KEEP IN PRIVATE"? CAN YOU SAY: WE THINK THE MANTRA AS
EASILY AS WE THINK ANY OTHER THOUGHT?

4 In the very beginning of the text (Clarifying the Natural State),
the author Takpo Tashi Namgyal, outlines many ways of calming
(shamatha) the mind. Among them is a technique to do at night: "At
night, focus the attention on a pea-sized white sphere between the
eyebrows." CAN YOU SAY NIGHT-TECHNIQUE?

Right after my teacher training course, Sattyanand came to our Centre
to give advanced techniques. Several of us (exalted tm teachers that
we were, two of whom were 2-week wonders and me) asked about the night
technique. Sattyanand was quite open about it, he said that originally
the technique had been to put your attention on the forehead, but
people found that too hard, so it was move to several different
physical places before it was to place the attention out in front of
yourself.

A word about shamatha. In the time of the historical Buddha, Gotama
Sidhartha, meditation was well known. Unlike Mahesh who keeps
everything secret to keep the mystery and the hope going (and the
takers paying), the Buddha was very open. He said he was not a tight
fisted teacher who held this or that back for a price. He also talked
freely and in detail about his childhood and his teachers. He tells a
story from his youth about the ploughing festival. (Apparently not
unlike an Amish barn-raising social event.) Because he was only a
child, he got bored and went to the garden and sat under a tree where
he practised watching his breath. This is shamatha, being aware of the
breath coming in, being aware of the breath going out. It leads to
calmness and a state of peacefulness, just like tm. (But as the Buddha
later noted and as Buddhist teachers still teach: this by itself does
not lead to awakening, to freedom from suffering.)

Later, when the Buddha resolved to sit until he reached enlightenment
or die trying, he began with this shamatha which, as he himself tells
the story, he recalled from his childhood. What the Buddha added to
shamatha was vipashyana, awareness of the mind's nature. (And these
two, as the Buddha noted and as Buddhist teachers still teach: leads
to awakening, to freedom from suffering.)

5 Aside from that tape that he recorded in Scandinavia that found its
way to Joyce Collin-Smith (Call No Man Master), Mahesh has had very,
very little to say about the origins of tm. Curiously, nothing by this
name is mentioned in any ancient Brahmanical (Vedic) text so far
brought to light nor have specific references been found in any known
ancient or modern Brahmanical text to anything that even sounds
familiarly like tm. CAN YOU SAY BOGUS?

We concluded that it's the string that keeps the carrot attached to
the end of the stick that you need to pay a lot for that and that
Mahesh keeps well out of your reach that has kept Mahesh in business.
When it comes to secrets, people seem willing to pay any price to get
something for nothing, especially hope. CAN YOU SAY: FIRST YOU PAY,
THEN YOU LEARN AND THERE IS NO MONEY BACK GUARANTEE?

What we do find in the Tibetan tradition, especially, is something
called the secret mantra tradition. This is part of the Buddhist
tantra and an exceptionally distant cousin, many times removed from
the Hindu tantra. In this tradition, the repetition of mantras (not in
the tm fashion) is used with specific mantras for specific purposes.
CAN YOU SAY: WE SELECT THE RIGHT MANTRA APPROPRIATE FOR THE
INDIVIDUAL?

6 I don't think anyone thinks Mahesh is stupid, dull-witted or
working with anything other than a very high IQ as well as a very
penetrating grasp of human nature.

So mixing some Hindu mantras with some shamatha (in place of following
the breath) and getting some people to come on some teacher training
courses ("I will multiply myself") was not particularly difficult. But
the "I will multiply myself" business didn't actually turn out to be
all that true. There was no way he was going to create his own
competition, after all. There was absolutely no way in this world that
he was going to make anybody the least little bit like he was. (Now
that he has nothing to lose, crowing a king is simply another foolish
thing you have paid for in place of using your money to fund
butt-bouncers in the bogus effort to magically create world peace.)
Yet there was always the possibility that you might attain CC. CAN YOU
RECITE THE WAY THAT TM WILL LEAD TO COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS? CAN YOU
STILL PRETEND TO BELIEVE IT?

Some may recall his words about Lillian Rosen (one of the first
non-Hindu persons he trained to teach advanced techniques: "when
someone teaches advanced techniques they may be seen to be a guru;
with Lillian, I know I am taking no chances" – well, you had to be
there; it was both funny and very cruel). Yet the possibility was
always there (carrot on stick fashion) if we could just get cosmic
enough – and he almost let it out that just maybe Lillian was close
enough to merit this great honour. CAN YOU SAY, "WHAT IS YOUR MANTRA"
CAN YOU FOLLOW A SIMPLE FORMULA? CAN YOU SAY, "NOW SAY NAMAH AFTER
XXX" AND SO FORTH? THEN YOU, TOO, MUST REALLY BE COSMIC.

We often watched in fascination as Mahesh would ask about some other
meditation method or some other guru someone had been with before
coming to him and tm. "Oh, what does he teach?" "Oh, what does that
mean?" "Oh, and how were you told to do that?" He could be so darned
innocent, so charmingly dumb and uninformed, we just had to tell him
everything we knew. Didn't we. He could pump anyone this way for
information and did. CAN YOU REMEMBER THOSE SCI SYMPOSIA? CAN YOU
REMEMBER ALL THOSE QUESTIONS THAT MADE MAHESH LOOK SO WISE AND SO
DEEP? CAN YOU ASK A PROFESSOR A QUESTION AND THEN, WHEN THE
OPPORTUNITY ARISES, REPEAT HIS ANSWER AS IF YOU, TOO, WERE A
PROFESSOR? MAHESH COULD/DID/DOES.

Later he would take all this and work out the details of his
increasingly "advanced" and increasingly expensive courses. DO YOU
REMEMBER THE 108? DO YOU REMEMBER THE 6-MONTH COURSES? DO YOU REMEMBER
THE GOVERNOR'S COURSES? HOW MANY DIFFERENT COURSES WERE THERE? HOW
MANY ARE THERE NOW? HOW MANY WERE YOU ON, HOW DEEPLY ARE YOU STILL IN
DEPT? HOW ADVANCED DID YOU BECOME? * *HOW MUCH MONEY* * DID MAHESH
INVEST AFTER ALL THE TEACHING WE DID AFTER WE GOT SO ALL FIRED UP
AFTER ALL THOSE COURSES AND ALL THAT HOPE FOR THE FUTURE?

We were always in total spellbound awe of him as he can continuously
faked sincerity and innocence. What is the old saying? If you can face
sincerity you've got it made. He could fake it (as we found out in
private a few times) and he certainly knew he had it made; it was like
trading a baby something shiny for some candy. Actually taking candy
from a baby is no simple task, but something shiny is a whole new ball
game! CAN YOU REMEMBER HIM SAYING: NOBODY CAN LOVE YOU AS MUCH AS I
CAN" – SOME TEACHERS CERTAINLY CAN.

7 Mahesh has always been able to do a lot with a little; to churn out
brilliant sounding explanations for what I think just might be
meaningless experiences (see number 3 above, for example). And conning
really smart people is his specialty – WHO CAN SAY ENRON? It's not so
far-fetched. We believed him when he said that if the progressive West
were to take up tm, then his beloved India would also take up tm and
put an end to suffering there. What a humanitarian.

What he meant was that the more "really smart" people he conned in the
West, the more money he would make and those poor Hindus back home who
worship holy people (like His Wholly Weaselness Mahesh the Fox
himself) would fall for it (after all, back in India, at least in the
60's, 70's and maybe the 80's, being rich was absolute PROOF that you
were the next best thing to absolute success in this world, every
Hindu knows that – we think the people of India are not that gullible
and we have more respect for them than Mahesh apparently has, had,
whatever.) When there was an earthquake in northwest India, DO YOU
REMEMBER THE BAGS OF RICE, THE CLOTHING, THE MONEY MAHESH'S
ORGANIZATION SENT TO HELP THOSE PEOPLE HE CARED SO MUCH ABOUT? NEITHER
DO WE.

Why do we care so much?

First of all, playing with people's heads is a very damaging thing to
do. CAN YOU SAY UNSTRESSING?

Getting rich by conning the ignorant (re-read the last sentence of the
third dot ("*") paragraph at the top) is not all that hard and then
beginning to invest after you hold some huge teacher training courses
(Do You Remember The 70's?) isn't that hard either – and you can have
the appearance of actually offering low cost accommodation for these
teacher training courses. DID YOU USED TO SAY THAT MAHESH IS JUST A
SIMPLE MONK TRYING TO HELP THE WORLD?

Mahesh discovered he could ask for any amount of money to perpetuate
his con game. We think he makes Jimmy Baker look almost saintly (Tammy
Faye will never look saintly, just too much makeup) and to appear to
hold the world (maybe just the US) hostage for $1billion (which is
certainly gutsy) just reeks of rotten. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT FULL PAGE
SPREAD IN THE NY TIMES RIGHT AFTER 9/11?

Well, there is more, but this is enough for now.
LawsonE
2004-01-26 03:12:31 UTC
Permalink
"Chagya" <***@excite.com> wrote in message
[...]
Post by Chagya
Well, there is more, but this is enough for now.
Thanks for the info. I gotta wonder though, do you type this much all the
time, or only when you're really obsessing?
Phyllis Sheehan
2004-01-26 04:58:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Conned Me!
In his book "Science of Being and Art of Living"
<<? snip ? >>
[Dear Phyllis -- I agree with you and, since what you have written
will be right there on the screen, I have omitted it. I was hooked on
the opening words of SOB (yes, that's what we used to call it!) which
I now think of as "Science of Being A Con Artist"]
I hope what I have posted below won't be too long for you and others
to read. It needs more detail, but maybe others can help with that.
Certainly we have seen quite a lot of detail already about his
finances and the (don't make me laugh) "raam" ROTFL. There is some
irony and just possibly enough circumstantial "evidence" to maybe make
a few who already wonder wonder a little more. -- anyway, here is the
first draft of something I mentioned before. PLEASE REMEMBER. MY/OUR
GOAL IS NOT TO HURT PEOPLE WHO DO TM. IF YOU DO AND YOU LIKE WHAT YOU
GET FOR WHAT YOU DO, THAT'S YOUR DECISION. WE/I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO
KNOW THAT YOU HAVE HELP FUND A MAJOR CON ARTIST WHO LAUGHS AT YOU DAY
AFTER DAY (this laughing business I will post some other time).
Some friends and I have put this together for no other reason than
that there is so little truth in the organization that propagates "tm"
and in the actual tm teachings themselves. Mahesh Chandra Shrivastava,
b. 12 Jan 1917, claims to have been a totally devoted disciple of his
great guru and master Brahmanand Saraswati, Jagatguru of Jyotirmath.
He was possibly faking then and certainly is faking now.
I know Mahesh's family name because I was introduced to his brother,
J. P. Shrivastava at Rishikesh by Shantanand. Shantanand said, "This
is Maharishi's brother." And the gentleman introduced himself as J. P.
Shrivastava. (I also had the opportunity to ask some of the very
earliest initiators who also confirmed this. A friend handled Mahesh's
passport and reported to me the date of birth.)
* The idea of Mahesh beguiling mahamudra and dzogchen teachings (which
will be explained a little bit below) out of some lama or lamas
fleeing the Chinese is no stretch at all. Mahesh is an insufferable
opportunist quite capable of ripping off anyone. No one needs to
explain this to those who have watched him carefully and the
disillusioned who no longer can take him at his purported face value.
Perhaps nothing can be shown to those who cling to their delusions
about Mahesh and his mantra meditation like the doomed to straws.
* I think that Mahesh well knew that even smart people will pay almost
anything to get something for nothing ? especially "hope" ? and
Mahesh's claims about tm sure made it sound like something really
worth it. Of course, we all bought into the personality of Mahesh. We
probably started because he was so cute, so giggly, so beguiling, so
promising, so clever when he answered questions in his singing,
squeaky voice with that adorable accent. Those of us who attended SCI
symposia were in awe as he took every scientist and philosopher by the
hand and led him or her around to his way of seeing things. He was
truly beguiling, with the BEbeing and softness of a dove and the GUILE
of the biblical serpent. But we just couldn't see it then.
* There is a dzogchen monastery at Dehradun (not too far north and
somewhat east of Rishikesh). It was founded in the 50's. ? Because we
believed everything that came out of Mahesh's mouth (CC in 3 to 5
years, levitation, that he was the closest of Guru Dev's disciples,
that he must be as cosmic as he seemed) we believed that after Guru
Dev died he indeed sat in a cave for some years until he introduced tm
to the world. I think there is more evidence that he was busy pumping
every lama and guru (Ganges River Valley saint) he could find for
whatever he could beguile from them. If he spent 13 years being Guru
Dev's factotum, then he already had a very accurate knowledge of the
who's who of the Himalayan foothills. Yet, for ourselves, we never
actually KNEW a thing. Just what was it that we thought we knew so
much about that we were so sure of Mahesh's "maharishiness"?
His Wholly Weaselness Mahesh the Fox demonstrated time and again that
he is as smart as they come, If nothing else, that was the whole
purpose behind those SCI symposia ? to make sure everybody got the
picture, read my lips: I am the smartest person on the planet, these
professors and scientists nuzzle up to me AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT.
He has covered his tracks well (secrets really work [sell well] if
they are actually secrets and no one can penetrate them) and made very
sound investments ? the "raam" ROTFL for example ? remember, he used
your money to do this, he didn't use it to create world peace, that's
for suckers to invest in, butt-bouncing and such.
The following is not, therefore "proof" but we think it is very
convincing. (For references purposes: "I" and "we" are used
interchangeably and neither refers to one of us nor to all of us.)
1 I don't really know that Mahesh got tm from some sincere and
unsuspecting lama whom he conned, but the similarities between "tm"
and the Tibetan Buddhist teachings of mahamudra and dzogchen are quite
interesting. I have cited sources, so you can sort this out yourself,
later.
I have often enough seen him beguile the bejesus out of anyone who
knew something that he thought he might be able to use and we think
that is precisely why the Beatles got up and left Rishikesh ? he was
pumping them for information: about money, about contacts, about using
them to further his interests.
One of our old time teachers (actually, he became a teacher in 2 weeks
at Lake Louise) had been a disciple of Yogananda and had told Mahesh
everything about Kriya Yoga. Mahesh said it was ok to continue doing
Kriya Yoga, but to do tm first! Then, several years later, wonders of
wonders, one of the "age of enlightenment" techniques turned out to be
one of Yogananda's techniques. CAN YOU WONDER ABOUT THE "PURITY" OF
THE TEACHING?
2 In the mahamudra and dzogchen (secret meditation methods in Tibetan
Buddhism), every teaching session begins with everybody reciting the
refuge prayer, a recitation of the great teachers of the past who
developed and handed down (preserved) these meditation teachings. CAN
YOU SAY PUJA?
3 In "Clarifying the Natural State" (available from Amazon), one of
the very great mahamudra teachers from 16th century Tibet says: "some
people take meditation to be a vacant state of mind in which the
former thought has ceased and the following thought has not yet
arisen. These ways are not embraced by vipashyana [the secret
meditation method] and so are grave faults." CAN YOU SAY PURE
CONSCIOUSNESS?
A word about "secret" here: in the Tibetan tradition, "secret" means
self-secret. It is right there in the very nature of your ability to
think a thought, but you do not see it. In order for you to see it, to
understand it, to be able to use it, you have to have a teacher point
it out to you. This is vipashyana. CAN YOU SAY, "WHAT WE LEARN IN
PRIVATE WE KEEP IN PRIVATE"? CAN YOU SAY: WE THINK THE MANTRA AS
EASILY AS WE THINK ANY OTHER THOUGHT?
4 In the very beginning of the text (Clarifying the Natural State),
the author Takpo Tashi Namgyal, outlines many ways of calming
(shamatha) the mind. Among them is a technique to do at night: "At
night, focus the attention on a pea-sized white sphere between the
eyebrows." CAN YOU SAY NIGHT-TECHNIQUE?
Right after my teacher training course, Sattyanand came to our Centre
to give advanced techniques. Several of us (exalted tm teachers that
we were, two of whom were 2-week wonders and me) asked about the night
technique. Sattyanand was quite open about it, he said that originally
the technique had been to put your attention on the forehead, but
people found that too hard, so it was move to several different
physical places before it was to place the attention out in front of
yourself.
A word about shamatha. In the time of the historical Buddha, Gotama
Sidhartha, meditation was well known. Unlike Mahesh who keeps
everything secret to keep the mystery and the hope going (and the
takers paying), the Buddha was very open. He said he was not a tight
fisted teacher who held this or that back for a price. He also talked
freely and in detail about his childhood and his teachers. He tells a
story from his youth about the ploughing festival. (Apparently not
unlike an Amish barn-raising social event.) Because he was only a
child, he got bored and went to the garden and sat under a tree where
he practised watching his breath. This is shamatha, being aware of the
breath coming in, being aware of the breath going out. It leads to
calmness and a state of peacefulness, just like tm. (But as the Buddha
later noted and as Buddhist teachers still teach: this by itself does
not lead to awakening, to freedom from suffering.)
Later, when the Buddha resolved to sit until he reached enlightenment
or die trying, he began with this shamatha which, as he himself tells
the story, he recalled from his childhood. What the Buddha added to
shamatha was vipashyana, awareness of the mind's nature. (And these
two, as the Buddha noted and as Buddhist teachers still teach: leads
to awakening, to freedom from suffering.)
5 Aside from that tape that he recorded in Scandinavia that found its
way to Joyce Collin-Smith (Call No Man Master), Mahesh has had very,
very little to say about the origins of tm. Curiously, nothing by this
name is mentioned in any ancient Brahmanical (Vedic) text so far
brought to light nor have specific references been found in any known
ancient or modern Brahmanical text to anything that even sounds
familiarly like tm. CAN YOU SAY BOGUS?
We concluded that it's the string that keeps the carrot attached to
the end of the stick that you need to pay a lot for that and that
Mahesh keeps well out of your reach that has kept Mahesh in business.
When it comes to secrets, people seem willing to pay any price to get
something for nothing, especially hope. CAN YOU SAY: FIRST YOU PAY,
THEN YOU LEARN AND THERE IS NO MONEY BACK GUARANTEE?
What we do find in the Tibetan tradition, especially, is something
called the secret mantra tradition. This is part of the Buddhist
tantra and an exceptionally distant cousin, many times removed from
the Hindu tantra. In this tradition, the repetition of mantras (not in
the tm fashion) is used with specific mantras for specific purposes.
CAN YOU SAY: WE SELECT THE RIGHT MANTRA APPROPRIATE FOR THE
INDIVIDUAL?
6 I don't think anyone thinks Mahesh is stupid, dull-witted or
working with anything other than a very high IQ as well as a very
penetrating grasp of human nature.
So mixing some Hindu mantras with some shamatha (in place of following
the breath) and getting some people to come on some teacher training
courses ("I will multiply myself") was not particularly difficult. But
the "I will multiply myself" business didn't actually turn out to be
all that true. There was no way he was going to create his own
competition, after all. There was absolutely no way in this world that
he was going to make anybody the least little bit like he was. (Now
that he has nothing to lose, crowing a king is simply another foolish
thing you have paid for in place of using your money to fund
butt-bouncers in the bogus effort to magically create world peace.)
Yet there was always the possibility that you might attain CC. CAN YOU
RECITE THE WAY THAT TM WILL LEAD TO COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS? CAN YOU
STILL PRETEND TO BELIEVE IT?
Some may recall his words about Lillian Rosen (one of the first
non-Hindu persons he trained to teach advanced techniques: "when
someone teaches advanced techniques they may be seen to be a guru;
with Lillian, I know I am taking no chances" ? well, you had to be
there; it was both funny and very cruel). Yet the possibility was
always there (carrot on stick fashion) if we could just get cosmic
enough ? and he almost let it out that just maybe Lillian was close
enough to merit this great honour. CAN YOU SAY, "WHAT IS YOUR MANTRA"
CAN YOU FOLLOW A SIMPLE FORMULA? CAN YOU SAY, "NOW SAY NAMAH AFTER
XXX" AND SO FORTH? THEN YOU, TOO, MUST REALLY BE COSMIC.
We often watched in fascination as Mahesh would ask about some other
meditation method or some other guru someone had been with before
coming to him and tm. "Oh, what does he teach?" "Oh, what does that
mean?" "Oh, and how were you told to do that?" He could be so darned
innocent, so charmingly dumb and uninformed, we just had to tell him
everything we knew. Didn't we. He could pump anyone this way for
information and did. CAN YOU REMEMBER THOSE SCI SYMPOSIA? CAN YOU
REMEMBER ALL THOSE QUESTIONS THAT MADE MAHESH LOOK SO WISE AND SO
DEEP? CAN YOU ASK A PROFESSOR A QUESTION AND THEN, WHEN THE
OPPORTUNITY ARISES, REPEAT HIS ANSWER AS IF YOU, TOO, WERE A
PROFESSOR? MAHESH COULD/DID/DOES.
Later he would take all this and work out the details of his
increasingly "advanced" and increasingly expensive courses. DO YOU
REMEMBER THE 108? DO YOU REMEMBER THE 6-MONTH COURSES? DO YOU REMEMBER
THE GOVERNOR'S COURSES? HOW MANY DIFFERENT COURSES WERE THERE? HOW
MANY ARE THERE NOW? HOW MANY WERE YOU ON, HOW DEEPLY ARE YOU STILL IN
DEPT? HOW ADVANCED DID YOU BECOME? * *HOW MUCH MONEY* * DID MAHESH
INVEST AFTER ALL THE TEACHING WE DID AFTER WE GOT SO ALL FIRED UP
AFTER ALL THOSE COURSES AND ALL THAT HOPE FOR THE FUTURE?
We were always in total spellbound awe of him as he can continuously
faked sincerity and innocence. What is the old saying? If you can face
sincerity you've got it made. He could fake it (as we found out in
private a few times) and he certainly knew he had it made; it was like
trading a baby something shiny for some candy. Actually taking candy
from a baby is no simple task, but something shiny is a whole new ball
game! CAN YOU REMEMBER HIM SAYING: NOBODY CAN LOVE YOU AS MUCH AS I
CAN" ? SOME TEACHERS CERTAINLY CAN.
7 Mahesh has always been able to do a lot with a little; to churn out
brilliant sounding explanations for what I think just might be
meaningless experiences (see number 3 above, for example). And conning
really smart people is his specialty ? WHO CAN SAY ENRON? It's not so
far-fetched. We believed him when he said that if the progressive West
were to take up tm, then his beloved India would also take up tm and
put an end to suffering there. What a humanitarian.
What he meant was that the more "really smart" people he conned in the
West, the more money he would make and those poor Hindus back home who
worship holy people (like His Wholly Weaselness Mahesh the Fox
himself) would fall for it (after all, back in India, at least in the
60's, 70's and maybe the 80's, being rich was absolute PROOF that you
were the next best thing to absolute success in this world, every
Hindu knows that ? we think the people of India are not that gullible
and we have more respect for them than Mahesh apparently has, had,
whatever.) When there was an earthquake in northwest India, DO YOU
REMEMBER THE BAGS OF RICE, THE CLOTHING, THE MONEY MAHESH'S
ORGANIZATION SENT TO HELP THOSE PEOPLE HE CARED SO MUCH ABOUT? NEITHER
DO WE.
Why do we care so much?
First of all, playing with people's heads is a very damaging thing to
do. CAN YOU SAY UNSTRESSING?
Getting rich by conning the ignorant (re-read the last sentence of the
third dot ("*") paragraph at the top) is not all that hard and then
beginning to invest after you hold some huge teacher training courses
(Do You Remember The 70's?) isn't that hard either ? and you can have
the appearance of actually offering low cost accommodation for these
teacher training courses. DID YOU USED TO SAY THAT MAHESH IS JUST A
SIMPLE MONK TRYING TO HELP THE WORLD?
Mahesh discovered he could ask for any amount of money to perpetuate
his con game. We think he makes Jimmy Baker look almost saintly (Tammy
Faye will never look saintly, just too much makeup) and to appear to
hold the world (maybe just the US) hostage for $1billion (which is
certainly gutsy) just reeks of rotten. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT FULL PAGE
SPREAD IN THE NY TIMES RIGHT AFTER 9/11?
Well, there is more, but this is enough for now.
Chagya,

More Please !


Looking forward to it !

Thanks,

Phyllis
LawsonE
2004-01-26 07:43:03 UTC
Permalink
"Phyllis Sheehan" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
[...]
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Chagya,
More Please !
Looking forward to it !
Thanks,
Two obsessive compulsives, or just one with two names?
Chagya
2004-01-26 15:46:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Conned Me!
In his book "Science of Being and Art of Living"
<<? snip ? >>
Well, there is more, but this is enough for now.
Chagya,
More Please !
Looking forward to it !
Thanks,
Phyllis
I will be happy to post more about what we found about tm. But later.
For now, if you can take a look at "Clarifying the Natural State" I
think you will be very convinced that the His Wholly Weaselness's idea
of Purity of the teaching and honouring Guru Dev amounted to the
narcissistic meglomania of "it's so because I say it's so and I am
self-important enough to know".

And keep in mind: he has invested huge amounts of money (most of which
flowed in after those gigantic teacher training courses in Mallorca,
Fiuggi and La Antilla in the early 70's -- the organization got half
of what the teachers generated and probably half of that or more went
directly to the weasel).

His investments are secure, profitable and none of then seem to be
involved in supporting his primary purpose: world peace. He has not
invested any of his money in butt-bouncing. Why? Well, he knows it's a
hoax of the worst kind. He only invests in sure things such as
monuments to his ego (like the "raam" ROTFL).
Phyllis Sheehan
2004-01-26 19:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chagya
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Conned Me!
In his book "Science of Being and Art of Living"
<<? snip ? >>
Well, there is more, but this is enough for now.
Chagya,
More Please !
Looking forward to it !
Thanks,
Phyllis
I will be happy to post more about what we found about tm. But later.
For now, if you can take a look at "Clarifying the Natural State" I
think you will be very convinced that the His Wholly Weaselness's idea
of Purity of the teaching and honouring Guru Dev amounted to the
narcissistic meglomania of "it's so because I say it's so and I am
self-important enough to know".
And keep in mind: he has invested huge amounts of money (most of which
flowed in after those gigantic teacher training courses in Mallorca,
Fiuggi and La Antilla in the early 70's -- the organization got half
of what the teachers generated and probably half of that or more went
directly to the weasel).
His investments are secure, profitable and none of then seem to be
involved in supporting his primary purpose: world peace. He has not
invested any of his money in butt-bouncing. Why? Well, he knows it's a
hoax of the worst kind. He only invests in sure things such as
monuments to his ego (like the "raam" ROTFL).
Thanks Chagya - I'll look foward to more!

The one thing I forgot to ask is do you still practise TM?
I still do,and still think it's a superb technique - I Am certain that
it must have been devised by some genuine person at some point-
certainly not MMY !

Phyllis
Chagya
2004-01-26 23:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Conned Me!
In his book "Science of Being and Art of Living"
<<? snip ? >>
Thanks Chagya - I'll look foward to more!
The one thing I forgot to ask is do you still practise TM?
I still do,and still think it's a superb technique - I Am certain that
it must have been devised by some genuine person at some point-
certainly not MMY !
Phyllis
No, actually, I personally do not do tm any more. Some of our group
do. I (that is, me personally in this case) had lots of advanced and
special techniques and 'sidhi' techniques form the old weasel. After a
while tm was just horrible. Too late I realized I had simply been one
of his experimental animals about whom he had no concern whatsoever.
There were also others.

I am sorry to disillusion you, but tm is definitely the old weasel's
concoction from many sources. Remember, those 13 years he spent with
Guru Dev were not 13 years of sitting in the dark. He must have
gathered a very significant list of who was who in the who-knows-what
realm. We must remember how important Guru Dev was. If PM Neru came to
see him then certainly so did many yogis, sadhus, gurus of all kinds,
teachers and businessmen. Sattyanand was very clear about that once
and emphasized that EVERYBODY came to see Guru Dev. Although before he
became Shankaracharya he had been very reclusive, after becoming
Shankaracharya, he was very open and hospitable to those who came.
After Guru Dev's death with which His Wholly Weaselness either did or
did not have some hand in (proof is absent, yet the rumors persist),
he probably networked his contacts. I mentioned the book by Namgyal
because it is so full of the makings of tm. Considering how I
(personally) and we so often saw him weasel information out of people,
it would be difficult to think that his rather obvious craving for
power, authority, prestige, wealth, position is something new. By his
own account he rose to the highest servant-type ranks in Guru Dev's
ashram. One would have to be rather dull-witted to miss this
connection.

Whatever we might think of him, the weasel is highly intelligent and
inventive. To have come up with tm and, especially the checking
procedure (even though it evolved over considerable time) is the work
of an astonishingly brilliant mind. Unfortunately, that brilliant mind
is also the mind of a con man of the very most despicable kind. We
have some first hand accounts from some of the very rich people he
took advantage of. Maybe we can post them some time.

BUT, and this is important, if you are practising tm and it is not
posing a problem (if you can think clearly, if you make wise
decisions, if your friends aren't worrying about the things you do, if
you sleep well, if your meditation is comfortable and you are
comfortable afterwards) then it is OK for you. It is probably good for
you. We have to be careful. The practise of tm by itself, just tm and
none of the weasel's money-making additives, is usually good. Rounding
can be difficult for some people. Rounding can cause problems that
don't easily amend themselves. This does not always apply to everyone
who rounds. But there is nothing scientific about tm. There is no
guarantee what will happen after a while. If you have been doing it
for a long time and things are still good, then you are one of the
fortunate ones. I think you get the picture here.
Stu
2004-01-27 02:22:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chagya
BUT, and this is important, if you are practising tm and it is not
posing a problem (if you can think clearly, if you make wise
decisions, if your friends aren't worrying about the things you do, if
you sleep well, if your meditation is comfortable and you are
comfortable afterwards) then it is OK for you. It is probably good for
you. We have to be careful. The practise of tm by itself, just tm and
none of the weasel's money-making additives, is usually good. Rounding
can be difficult for some people. Rounding can cause problems that
don't easily amend themselves. This does not always apply to everyone
who rounds. But there is nothing scientific about tm. There is no
guarantee what will happen after a while. If you have been doing it
for a long time and things are still good, then you are one of the
fortunate ones. I think you get the picture here.
One pattern I have noticed is that people who practice the simple TM
technique rarely talk of difficulties. Though for the most part people get
bored with it and quit within a year. Those that stick with it get benefit
from it. The problems seem to arise to those that go off to alternative
practices as they get deeply involved with the organization. At least that
has been my experience with the people I have met.
--
~Stu
unknown
2004-01-27 09:22:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chagya
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Conned Me!
In his book "Science of Being and Art of Living"
<<? snip ? >>
Thanks Chagya - I'll look foward to more!
The one thing I forgot to ask is do you still practise TM?
I still do,and still think it's a superb technique - I Am certain that
it must have been devised by some genuine person at some point-
certainly not MMY !
Phyllis
No, actually, I personally do not do tm any more. Some of our group
do. I (that is, me personally in this case) had lots of advanced and
special techniques and 'sidhi' techniques form the old weasel. After a
while tm was just horrible. Too late I realized I had simply been one
of his experimental animals about whom he had no concern whatsoever.
There were also others.
I am sorry to disillusion you, but tm is definitely the old weasel's
concoction from many sources. Remember, those 13 years he spent with
Guru Dev were not 13 years of sitting in the dark. He must have
gathered a very significant list of who was who in the who-knows-what
realm. We must remember how important Guru Dev was. If PM Neru came to
see him then certainly so did many yogis, sadhus, gurus of all kinds,
teachers and businessmen. Sattyanand was very clear about that once
and emphasized that EVERYBODY came to see Guru Dev. Although before he
became Shankaracharya he had been very reclusive, after becoming
Shankaracharya, he was very open and hospitable to those who came.
After Guru Dev's death with which His Wholly Weaselness either did or
did not have some hand in (proof is absent, yet the rumors persist),
he probably networked his contacts. I mentioned the book by Namgyal
because it is so full of the makings of tm. Considering how I
(personally) and we so often saw him weasel information out of people,
it would be difficult to think that his rather obvious craving for
power, authority, prestige, wealth, position is something new. By his
own account he rose to the highest servant-type ranks in Guru Dev's
ashram. One would have to be rather dull-witted to miss this
connection.
Whatever we might think of him, the weasel is highly intelligent and
inventive. To have come up with tm and, especially the checking
procedure (even though it evolved over considerable time) is the work
of an astonishingly brilliant mind. Unfortunately, that brilliant mind
is also the mind of a con man of the very most despicable kind. We
have some first hand accounts from some of the very rich people he
took advantage of. Maybe we can post them some time.
BUT, and this is important, if you are practising tm and it is not
posing a problem (if you can think clearly, if you make wise
decisions, if your friends aren't worrying about the things you do, if
you sleep well, if your meditation is comfortable and you are
comfortable afterwards) then it is OK for you. It is probably good for
you. We have to be careful. The practise of tm by itself, just tm and
none of the weasel's money-making additives, is usually good. Rounding
can be difficult for some people. Rounding can cause problems that
don't easily amend themselves. This does not always apply to everyone
who rounds. But there is nothing scientific about tm. There is no
guarantee what will happen after a while. If you have been doing it
for a long time and things are still good, then you are one of the
fortunate ones. I think you get the picture here.
This is you in a previous post :

"Personally, I found I felt really dreamy,
really spacy. I also found I didn't like feeling dreamy and spacy.
Being dreamy and spacy was taking over my life. "

You were starting to wake up to the fact that you are dreamy and spacy
-- you didn't like it so you stopped meditating -- then maya
redescended.

Your accusations are dreamy and spacy -- high on innuendo and low on
fact. "Maybe this, maybe that."

Also recommending trancenet as a source for info on TM doesn't gel
with what you wrote above.

As regards MMY not investing in the movement -- check the piece from
Hartford recently about the hotels belonging to the TMO -- they're not
being used for anything -- they were originally to be Vedic centres.
They've lost a fortune -- and yet, you paint MMY as some financial
whizz kid. Think of the other losses. Think of the strange pricing.
Yet MMY is supposed to be scamming money all over the place. This
does not compute !
willytex
2004-01-28 06:21:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Also recommending trancenet as a source for info on TM
doesn't gel with what you wrote above.
Oliver - When people come here to bash the Maharishi and they cite
Trancenet, you can almost bet on the fact that they'e liars and impostors.
unknown
2004-01-28 10:12:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by willytex
Post by unknown
Also recommending trancenet as a source for info on TM
doesn't gel with what you wrote above.
Oliver - When people come here to bash the Maharishi and they cite
Trancenet, you can almost bet on the fact that they'e liars and impostors.
Now that you've said it, it's obvious -- thanks for the tip !
Chagya
2004-01-28 16:05:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Conned Me!
In his book "Science of Being and Art of Living"
<<? snip ? >>[big omission]>>
As regards MMY not investing in the movement -- check the piece from
Hartford recently about the hotels belonging to the TMO -- they're not
being used for anything -- they were originally to be Vedic centres.
They've lost a fortune -- and yet, you paint MMY as some financial
whizz kid. Think of the other losses. Think of the strange pricing.
Yet MMY is supposed to be scamming money all over the place. This
does not compute !
You are right. Hats off to you. Yet he had enough $ to finance his own
currency. So things do not compute.

I think that Chet is absolutely right: wait and see. Watch.
But I feel much better now.
2004-01-28 21:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Yet MMY is supposed to be scamming money all over the place. This
does not compute !
So how do you account for the 320,000,000.00 Euros he accumulated in that
Dutch account? And lets not forget the $200,000,000.00 in the MGDF. You
think they just appeared?

And how did he buy all that real-estate? You think he swapped it for
"enlightenment courses"?

Inquiring minds like to know. Or do you just stick your head in the sand
and leave your brains at the TM door?
unknown
2004-01-29 17:13:48 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:13:27 GMT, "But I feel much better now."
Post by But I feel much better now.
Post by unknown
Yet MMY is supposed to be scamming money all over the place. This
does not compute !
So how do you account for the 320,000,000.00 Euros he accumulated in that
Dutch account? And lets not forget the $200,000,000.00 in the MGDF. You
think they just appeared?
And how did he buy all that real-estate? You think he swapped it for
"enlightenment courses"?
Inquiring minds like to know. Or do you just stick your head in the sand
and leave your brains at the TM door?
No , the money didn't appear.
It was raised through the teaching of TM, the TM-Sidhi programme,
Jyotish, and through donations raised over the years. You know
different ?
But I feel much better now.
2004-01-29 17:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:13:27 GMT, "But I feel much better now."
Post by But I feel much better now.
Post by unknown
Yet MMY is supposed to be scamming money all over the place. This
does not compute !
So how do you account for the 320,000,000.00 Euros he accumulated in that
Dutch account? And lets not forget the $200,000,000.00 in the MGDF. You
think they just appeared?
And how did he buy all that real-estate? You think he swapped it for
"enlightenment courses"?
Inquiring minds like to know. Or do you just stick your head in the sand
and leave your brains at the TM door?
No , the money didn't appear.
It was raised through the teaching of TM, the TM-Sidhi programme,
Jyotish, and through donations raised over the years. You know
different ?
Then you have to agree it computes...
unknown
2004-01-29 20:09:52 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:58:32 GMT, "But I feel much better now."
Post by But I feel much better now.
Post by unknown
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:13:27 GMT, "But I feel much better now."
Post by But I feel much better now.
Post by unknown
Yet MMY is supposed to be scamming money all over the place. This
does not compute !
So how do you account for the 320,000,000.00 Euros he accumulated in that
Dutch account? And lets not forget the $200,000,000.00 in the MGDF. You
think they just appeared?
And how did he buy all that real-estate? You think he swapped it for
"enlightenment courses"?
Inquiring minds like to know. Or do you just stick your head in the sand
and leave your brains at the TM door?
No , the money didn't appear.
It was raised through the teaching of TM, the TM-Sidhi programme,
Jyotish, and through donations raised over the years. You know
different ?
Then you have to agree it computes...
What doesn't compute is that MMY is portrayed by anti-tm'ers like you
as a world class businessman whose sole aim in life is the acquisition
of wealth while it's evident from newspaper reports amd other sources
that money is put into loss-making schemes like the hotels in Hartford
and in securing the Raam. With interest rates in Europe the way they
are, no serious business is leaving money in the bank. Far better to
put it into property or gold.

You can't have it both ways, Mr Knapp !

Praise the Lord !!
unknown
2004-01-29 21:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Whoops ! Ignore Mr Knapp !
But I feel much better now.
2004-01-29 22:19:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:58:32 GMT, "But I feel much better now."
Post by But I feel much better now.
Post by unknown
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:13:27 GMT, "But I feel much better now."
Post by But I feel much better now.
Post by unknown
Yet MMY is supposed to be scamming money all over the place. This
does not compute !
So how do you account for the 320,000,000.00 Euros he accumulated in that
Dutch account? And lets not forget the $200,000,000.00 in the MGDF.
You
Post by unknown
Post by But I feel much better now.
Post by unknown
Post by But I feel much better now.
think they just appeared?
And how did he buy all that real-estate? You think he swapped it for
"enlightenment courses"?
Inquiring minds like to know. Or do you just stick your head in the sand
and leave your brains at the TM door?
No , the money didn't appear.
It was raised through the teaching of TM, the TM-Sidhi programme,
Jyotish, and through donations raised over the years. You know
different ?
Then you have to agree it computes...
What doesn't compute is that MMY is portrayed by anti-tm'ers like you
as a world class businessman whose sole aim in life is the acquisition
of wealth
Why not? If the shoe fits let him wear it. He accumulated well over half a
billion dollars (a lot of it to secure world peace) (the Enlightenment
Courses) yet MMY is not willing to put his money where his faith and
promises are concerning world peace. And you do not see a problem there?
And you call my reasoning in question....
Send your money but leave brains at the TM door please.
Post by unknown
while it's evident from newspaper reports amd other sources
that money is put into loss-making schemes like the hotels in Hartford
That money is OVER AND ABOVE the 1/2 Billion dollars in the Dutch Bank and
the MGDF
Post by unknown
and in securing the Raam.
1. He can still use the interest to pay for world peace.
2. Or he can call / pay back the Raams and use the rest of the money for
world peace.
3. Or he can sell the rest of the Raams and use the money from the sale to
fund world peace. Yet he does not do any of those options. Yet you, with
out reason, still defend him.
Post by unknown
With interest rates in Europe the way they
are, no serious business is leaving money in the bank. Far better to
put it into property or gold.
Why don't you see world peace as an option?
willytex
2004-01-28 06:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chagya
I personally do not do tm any more.
Chagya - It hasn't been established that you ever began TM.
Post by Chagya
I...had lots of advanced and special techniques and
'sidhi' techniques form the old weasel.
<snip>

Nobody gets an initiation directly from "the old weasel" - you made that up.

So, Chagya, you spent thousands of dollars, over a number of years, taking
TM initiations and advanced courses, all the way up to and including the TM-
Sidhi program, which costs over $3,000, and all you can show for it is to
bash the TMers on a newsgroup? Go figure.

That doesn't say much for you, Sir!

Can you prove that you spent all that money on the Maharishi's relaxation
techniques?
Chet McCann
2004-01-26 20:43:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Post by Chagya
Well, there is more, but this is enough for now.
Chagya,
More Please !
Looking forward to it !
Thanks,
Phyllis
Phyllis...

What Chagya has related of his theories and opinions is interesting.
I'll repost something I posted originally in June 2000...

I still feel that people who opted to step way into the movement
partly deluded yourselves, *if* delusion is involved. (Yes, MMY and
central followers also played their roles.) You should realize that
those of you who take debating stances [on AMT] are people who made
the choice to be fairly deeply involved with the movement.

What I read on this n.g. frequently seems like a bitter backlash
against periods in people's lives when they over-committed to the TM
movement. To me, you appear to be *looking for* strong, rather
emotional feelings and statements. Realize that people who committed
less to the movement tend to have milder reactions.

Now as far as I'm concerned, TM is one tool in the toolbox. No
carpenter builds with a saw only, why should we? The carpenter uses
hammers, a level, a square, a plane, etc. Many yogis in India and
elsewhere have taken this approach.

Take TM, use it with caution, use it for what it is good for. It's
done me some good. But TM is one tool. Drop it when it's the wrong
tool. Use it along with others when that makes sense. [end]


I'll just add, to the original message which I've reproduced above,
that a friend of mine recommended a practice to me that has
emphatically helped me. My friend is a former TMer who had also
explored a number of other meditative paths, plus he is a trained
psychologist. He got me to try Reiki attunement. Reiki is very
valuable, but there is no Reiki organization for which I work... I
don't proselytize for it. However, I'll share that it blew off a lot
of "fog" that resulted for me from TM practice, and it has really
improved my health. There are now many places from which to get the
attunements for free.

... Chet
Uncle Tantra
2004-01-26 21:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chet McCann
What Chagya has related of his theories and opinions is interesting.
I'll repost something I posted originally in June 2000...
I still feel that people who opted to step way into the movement
partly deluded yourselves, *if* delusion is involved. (Yes, MMY and
central followers also played their roles.) You should realize that
those of you who take debating stances [on AMT] are people who made
the choice to be fairly deeply involved with the movement.
What I read on this n.g. frequently seems like a bitter backlash
against periods in people's lives when they over-committed to the TM
movement. To me, you appear to be *looking for* strong, rather
emotional feelings and statements. Realize that people who committed
less to the movement tend to have milder reactions.
Now as far as I'm concerned, TM is one tool in the toolbox. No
carpenter builds with a saw only, why should we? The carpenter uses
hammers, a level, a square, a plane, etc. Many yogis in India and
elsewhere have taken this approach.
Take TM, use it with caution, use it for what it is good for. It's
done me some good. But TM is one tool. Drop it when it's the wrong
tool. Use it along with others when that makes sense. [end]
Damn. A rational post. On a.m.t.

You obviously don't fit in here.

:-)
willytex
2004-01-28 06:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Uncle Tantra
A rational post.
Uncle - Compared to your posts, almost any post seems rational.

Who can forget your rant about insisting on having ice cream every night on
your CCP?
Post by Uncle Tantra
You obviously don't fit in here.
You fit right in with the French cafe' crowd - please don't come back to the
U.S.A - stay over there with R. Crumb.
Phyllis Sheehan
2004-01-28 13:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by willytex
Post by Uncle Tantra
A rational post.
Uncle - Compared to your posts, almost any post seems rational.
Who can forget your rant about insisting on having ice cream every night on
your CCP?
Post by Uncle Tantra
You obviously don't fit in here.
You fit right in with the French cafe' crowd - please don't come back to the
U.S.A - stay over there with R. Crumb.
Shut Up DORK !
BillyG.
2004-01-28 14:41:15 UTC
Permalink
"Phyllis Sheehan" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
snip
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Shut Up DORK !
More intelligent rebuttal from Mr. Manning!
eki
2004-01-26 20:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chagya
Getting rich by conning the ignorant (re-read the last sentence of the
third dot ("*") paragraph at the top) is not all that hard and then
beginning to invest after you hold some huge teacher training courses
(Do You Remember The 70's?) isn't that hard either – and you can have
the appearance of actually offering low cost accommodation for these
teacher training courses. DID YOU USED TO
Where did youse get used to use "used to" instead of "use to"
when youse should actually use "use to"?
willytex
2004-01-25 23:18:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Conned Me!
Phyllis - Cut the bullshit - you conned yourself if you think there's a
Maharishi in your house. And, if yoiu think the Maharishi promised you
"Salvation" then you're just stupid. TM is a relaxation technique.

You need to get some smarts Phyllis, if you think I'm going to ignore your
Maharishi bashing. The Maharishi didn't promise you anything and he owes you
nothing. You need to take responsibility for your own actions and stop
blaming others. You're not going to get anymore Salvation than you're going
to get, even with a great relaxation technique. : )

<snip>
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
I had my very own unique personal mantra!
You did until you published yours on the Internet. You turned your mantra
into a public game-set, and you made yourself into a laughing stock.

Now you're not even on the TM program anymore. You've got nothing to show
for your hard-earned bucks which you frivously wasted to no effect. And for
what? To prove that you've got an ego bigger than the Mahesh Yogi?

Anything can be a mantra, Phyllis. A mantra is whatever your guru says it
is. But first you've got toget a guru. A mantra is the proverbial "string
tied around your finger" - a reminder. Mantras are just simple mnemonic
devices for remembering.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
I'm not knocking the technique, what I am
You're not practicing TM. so how could you be knocking it?
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
calling into question is Maharishi's honesty!
Aparently, you've never even met the guy. Good grief, Lady! Get a grip.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
According to Minet.org and Trancenet there are
only 16 Proper Thoughts!
Consider the source, I'd say.

<snip>
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
In the 70's TM was full of colourful characters
Which one?
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
who really seemed to have "support of nature",
How would you know?
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
I truly believed that MMY and TM had it all - Salvation!
There's nothing in the TM Introductory Lecture that would lead anyone to
"believe" anything about the Maharishi. TM doesn't promise "Salvation" - you
made that up.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Suddenly we had high prices,
We? Since when were you a part of the TM Org?
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Levitation,
There's no levitation in the practice of TM.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
flasks of hot water,
Maybe so, but what your point? Lots of peole have flasks of hot water.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
and a requirement to conform in the TM movement
under His Holiness Guru Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
You're lying Phyllis - I can spot a lie like I can smell a fart in a car.
Since when is the Maharishi your "Guru"?
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Where did it all go wrong?
You should have stayed on the TM program and followed the instructions - now
you'll have to be visiting another Saint, I guess. You are stubborn too.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Those of you who still have a little heart
and light will agree with me that the TM
Organization is in fast decline due to the
loss of warm and compassionate teachers like
John Manning!
Yeah, write, Phyllis! Manning hates the Maharishi's guts. Go figure.
John Manning
2004-01-25 23:37:20 UTC
Permalink
The ugly Troll from Texas, Richard "little dick" Williams at work,
'inspiring' people to practise TM. Gawds, with inspiration like that its
a surprise that Richard Williams hasn't inspired himself into a law suit
from Maharishi.

Fortunately, the accused drug addled (according to long time TMer Bob
Brigante) little Willy could never qualify to actually teach TM.

Maharishi never accepted hallucinogenic psylocybin drug use as a means
to 'enlightenment'. And little dick Willy (Richard Williams) has claimed
that he doesn't really need TM for 'enlightenment' because he became
'enlightened' from psylocybin.

HA HA HA...
Post by willytex
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Conned Me!
Phyllis - Cut the bullshit - you conned yourself if you think there's a
Maharishi in your house. And, if yoiu think the Maharishi promised you
"Salvation" then you're just stupid. TM is a relaxation technique.
You need to get some smarts Phyllis, if you think I'm going to ignore your
Maharishi bashing. The Maharishi didn't promise you anything and he owes you
nothing. You need to take responsibility for your own actions and stop
blaming others. You're not going to get anymore Salvation than you're going
to get, even with a great relaxation technique. : )
<snip>
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
I had my very own unique personal mantra!
You did until you published yours on the Internet. You turned your mantra
into a public game-set, and you made yourself into a laughing stock.
Now you're not even on the TM program anymore. You've got nothing to show
for your hard-earned bucks which you frivously wasted to no effect. And for
what? To prove that you've got an ego bigger than the Mahesh Yogi?
Anything can be a mantra, Phyllis. A mantra is whatever your guru says it
is. But first you've got toget a guru. A mantra is the proverbial "string
tied around your finger" - a reminder. Mantras are just simple mnemonic
devices for remembering.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
I'm not knocking the technique, what I am
You're not practicing TM. so how could you be knocking it?
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
calling into question is Maharishi's honesty!
Aparently, you've never even met the guy. Good grief, Lady! Get a grip.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
According to Minet.org and Trancenet there are
only 16 Proper Thoughts!
Consider the source, I'd say.
<snip>
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
In the 70's TM was full of colourful characters
Which one?
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
who really seemed to have "support of nature",
How would you know?
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
I truly believed that MMY and TM had it all - Salvation!
There's nothing in the TM Introductory Lecture that would lead anyone to
"believe" anything about the Maharishi. TM doesn't promise "Salvation" - you
made that up.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Suddenly we had high prices,
We? Since when were you a part of the TM Org?
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Levitation,
There's no levitation in the practice of TM.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
flasks of hot water,
Maybe so, but what your point? Lots of peole have flasks of hot water.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
and a requirement to conform in the TM movement
under His Holiness Guru Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
You're lying Phyllis - I can spot a lie like I can smell a fart in a car.
Since when is the Maharishi your "Guru"?
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Where did it all go wrong?
You should have stayed on the TM program and followed the instructions - now
you'll have to be visiting another Saint, I guess. You are stubborn too.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Those of you who still have a little heart
and light will agree with me that the TM
Organization is in fast decline due to the
loss of warm and compassionate teachers like
John Manning!
Yeah, write, Phyllis! Manning hates the Maharishi's guts. Go figure.
willytex
2004-01-29 03:03:33 UTC
Permalink
...the accused drug addled
From: sudarsha (***@sympatico.ca)
Subject: John Manning: Bio.
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
Date: 2001-11-06 16:38:50 PST

I had previously tried some of the chemicals he
had mentioned, but according to the plans, I had
managed to follow the requirements.

John Manning
Shemp McGurk
2004-01-27 07:04:44 UTC
Permalink
whether you "believe" that TM works or not and whether the TMO is
messed up in the way that they market the TM and ancillary techniques
doesn't change the reality of whether or not TM and the other
techniques work.

So suffer with the rest of us frustrated TMers who continue to do
their programs and yet cannot help but roll our eyes at every new
pronouncement from the TMO...
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Conned Me!
In his book "Science of Being and Art of Living"
Starting on page 50 under the heading Importance of a Proper Thought
- MMY speaks about "Why the selection of a proper thought for a
particular individual is a vital factor in the practice of
Transcendental Meditation" - My reaction to this statement and to
the Theme developed from page 50 to page 52 was that I had my very own
unique personal mantra! I'm not knocking the technique,what I am
calling into question is Maharishi's honesty!
According to Minet.org and Trancenet there are only 16 Proper
Thoughts!
Beginning right on the end of page 10 of MMY on The Bhagavad-Gita -
MMY states:- "Right action came to be regarded as a means to gain
nirvana,whereas right action is in fact the result of this state of
consciousness in freedom.
***** I genuinely believed do TM and all will be well. In the 70's TM
was full of colourful characters who really seemed to have "support of
nature,"I truly believed that MMY and TM had it all - Salvation !
Suddenly We had high prices,Levitation,flasks of hot water,and a
requirement to conform in the TM movement under His Holiness Guru
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
Where did it all go wrong?
Those of you who still have a little heart and light will agree with
me that the TM Organization is in fast decline due to the loss of warm
and compassionate teachers like John Manning !
Phyllis
BillyG.
2004-01-27 13:06:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shemp McGurk
whether you "believe" that TM works or not and whether the TMO is
messed up in the way that they market the TM and ancillary techniques
doesn't change the reality of whether or not TM and the other
techniques work.
So suffer with the rest of us frustrated TMers who continue to do
their programs and yet cannot help but roll our eyes at every new
pronouncement from the TMO...
You can say that again, what planet are these folks from? I hope you're
wrong, but growing evidence suggests you're not! :-( MMY's one passion in
life has been world peace, call it 'grandiose' or 'ambitious' I'm not sure,
but it looks destined for failure, at least in the near future.

Maybe someday, someone with some marketing skills will pick it up and it
will once again be widespread. Obviously the current administration doesn't
understand market forces. The tmorg has become a 'begging bowl' for its
sustenance, how long can that last.....one big score, I guess, and then the
rice converts.....but oh, yeah, they're from India so that makes all the
difference! Riiight! BillyG.

P.S. I think MMY will be coming back (reincarnating) to finish what he has
started, how can anyone leave the tmorg in good conscience...seeing how
'half-baked' it is! :-)
Chet McCann
2004-01-27 15:02:00 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:06:34 GMT, "BillyG."
Post by BillyG.
MMY's one passion in
life has been world peace, call it 'grandiose' or 'ambitious' I'm not sure,
but it looks destined for failure, at least in the near future.
Billy...

Despite the distance that I have tended to keep from the TMO all of
these years, there has always been something in me... a feeling...
that what you say here may be true. That "MMY's one passion in
life has been world peace," sincerely.

Do I think that TM is right for all persons at all times? No. Do I
believe that individual meditators get much consideration from MMY or
the TMO? Usually they do not. Do I believe that MMY put together his
programs from many different traditional practices and sources? Yes.
Do I think that TMers may have been used as "human guinea pigs" in TMO
experiements with a variety of techniques, programs, and nostrums?
Yes.

These are the kinds of things I sensed in the TMO early on, and why
for the most part (besides some advanced techniques and rounding
courses and reading some of the literature) I steered clear of it.

But if the world becomes a more peaceful place, and if there is reason
to believe the TM movement has been the cause or a significant part of
it, I would hope I can recognize the fact. I would want to give proper
credit to MMY.

... Chet
BillyG.
2004-01-27 18:14:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chet McCann
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:06:34 GMT, "BillyG."
Post by BillyG.
MMY's one passion in
life has been world peace, call it 'grandiose' or 'ambitious' I'm not sure,
but it looks destined for failure, at least in the near future.
Billy...
Despite the distance that I have tended to keep from the TMO all of
these years, there has always been something in me... a feeling...
that what you say here may be true. That "MMY's one passion in
life has been world peace," sincerely.
Do I think that TM is right for all persons at all times? No. Do I
believe that individual meditators get much consideration from MMY or
the TMO? Usually they do not. Do I believe that MMY put together his
programs from many different traditional practices and sources? Yes.
Do I think that TMers may have been used as "human guinea pigs" in TMO
experiements with a variety of techniques, programs, and nostrums?
Yes.
These are the kinds of things I sensed in the TMO early on, and why
for the most part (besides some advanced techniques and rounding
courses and reading some of the literature) I steered clear of it.
But if the world becomes a more peaceful place, and if there is reason
to believe the TM movement has been the cause or a significant part of
it, I would hope I can recognize the fact. I would want to give proper
credit to MMY.
... Chet
Chet-Without a doubt, from the get-go, no one has done more for me
personally than MMY. He has made us, afterall, knowers of Reality! On the
personal level, alone, MMY will always get the proper credit, on the
National level, well, that is another story, perhaps the last 50 years were
nothing more than a learning curve for MMY. I think he'll be coming back!
BillyG.
Stu
2004-01-30 04:38:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by BillyG.
National level, well, that is another story, perhaps the last 50 years were
nothing more than a learning curve for MMY. I think he'll be coming back!
BillyG.
I think the guy has to be dead first before you declare him a Messiah.
--
~Stu

I may be wrong.
BillyG.
2004-01-30 14:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stu
Post by BillyG.
National level, well, that is another story, perhaps the last 50 years were
nothing more than a learning curve for MMY. I think he'll be coming back!
BillyG.
I think the guy has to be dead first before you declare him a Messiah.
--
~Stu
I may be wrong.
Didn't exactly mean that...ha, ha! But, hey, who knows? :-)
Chagya
2004-01-27 20:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chet McCann
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:06:34 GMT, "BillyG."
Post by BillyG.
MMY's one passion in
life has been world peace, call it 'grandiose' or 'ambitious' I'm not sure,
but it looks destined for failure, at least in the near future.
Billy...
Despite the distance that I have tended to keep from the TMO all of
these years, there has always been something in me... a feeling...
that what you say here may be true. That "MMY's one passion in
life has been world peace," sincerely.
[omission here]

Chet -- I have been reading your very intelligent responses. They are
very impressive and I have no argument; however, I would like to ask a
question. If "MMY" one passion in life has been world peace, why has
he invested his money in everything except his claims that his
butt-bouncing is what will make world peace a sure thing?

Since he has invested in property, patent-medicine manufacturing and
such, which are money-maning and understandable, why did he sink so
many millions into funding his own money (the "raam")? Why didn't he
underwrite his own world peace scheme, butt-bouncing?

We cannot find an answer other than that he has no faith in it (and
see little evidence that anyone else does, either). Everyone
conveniently forgets that in the mid-60's he declared his ventures a
failure and said he was going to retire in the Himalayas or someplace.
But right then he ran into the Beatles and they ran into him and
PRESTO he was back in business.

He has been in business ever since and that disagreeable failure thing
has been forgotten and now we have big business tm. It was, right
after the Beatles, after all, that he started his huge teacher
training courses. His tm was suddenly very popular, everyone was
starting. The teachers made lots of money, half of which went to the
national organization. He invested in property. And finally sold
everyone he could a $3000 flying course (half of which went to the
national organization).

I don't think there is a shred of evidence that he has any confidence
in anything except his business skills. Until he puts his money where
his mouth is, I will consider his a very wealthy con artist and
nothing more.
Chet McCann
2004-01-27 22:08:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chagya
Post by Chet McCann
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:06:34 GMT, "BillyG."
Post by BillyG.
MMY's one passion in
life has been world peace, call it 'grandiose' or 'ambitious' I'm not sure,
but it looks destined for failure, at least in the near future.
Billy...
Despite the distance that I have tended to keep from the TMO all of
these years, there has always been something in me... a feeling...
that what you say here may be true. That "MMY's one passion in
life has been world peace," sincerely.
[omission here]
Chet -- I have been reading your very intelligent responses. They are
very impressive and I have no argument; however, I would like to ask a
question. If "MMY" one passion in life has been world peace, why has
he invested his money in everything except his claims that his
butt-bouncing is what will make world peace a sure thing?
Chagya, thanks. What I said in reply to Billy was... " there has
always been something in me... a feeling... that what you say here may
be true." *May be* ...I don't know that it *is* true. I "give people
the benefit of the doubt", and some people tell me it is a virtue of
mine, some tell me it is a weakness .
Post by Chagya
Since he has invested in property, patent-medicine manufacturing and
such, which are money-maning and understandable, why did he sink so
many millions into funding his own money (the "raam")? Why didn't he
underwrite his own world peace scheme, butt-bouncing?
<snip>
Post by Chagya
PRESTO he was back in business.
He has been in business ever since and that disagreeable failure thing
has been forgotten and now we have big business tm. It was, right
after the Beatles, after all, that he started his huge teacher
training courses. His tm was suddenly very popular, everyone was
starting. The teachers made lots of money, half of which went to the
national organization. He invested in property. And finally sold
everyone he could a $3000 flying course (half of which went to the
national organization).
Personally, I avoided all that, mainly due to a 'wait and see'
attitude that I had, but also partly due to the fact that I did not
care for the not-so-subtle conformity and narrow-mindedness involved
in the TMO peer pressure.
Post by Chagya
I don't think there is a shred of evidence that he has any confidence
in anything except his business skills. Until he puts his money where
his mouth is, I will consider his a very wealthy con artist and
nothing more.
I won't try to convince you otherwise, Chagya. I do not have any
evidence or argument of any sort that could convince you. In fact, I'm
not convinced.

I keep an open mind, but I can afford to because I'm not tempted to
spend money with the TMO, nor did I have a very deep involvement with
it. So, while I did a bit of "therapy" over my own feelings about the
TMO here on AMT four or five years back, I have never had a profound
emotional reaction against it.

... Chet
Chagya
2004-01-28 03:18:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chet McCann
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:06:34 GMT, "BillyG."
Post by BillyG.
MMY's one passion in
Chet -- I cut down the message as it is kind of long. I wish I knew
more people with your opem minded approach to all this business.

The old fox cobbled together bits of this and that and came up with
something to sell. He would have had no problem because all that time
with Guru Dev must have been wonderfully instructive.

I don't think he is in the least deficient in the business acumen or
human understanding departments. If he has ever proven anything, that
is certainly it. His meditation method is nothing new, actually,
although the package the the marketing skill are phenomenal.

To a limited degree, tm works and sometimes even works well. But the
more someone buys into all the rest of the organizational schemes, the
less the chances are, on a broad scale, of success other than the old
fox getting richer by selling more and more promises, more and more
hope and keeping secrets to keep the PR running.

If someone is doing tm and is feeling good about him/herself and isn't
getting into debt or having family problems because of it, all well
and good. As I have pointed out, tm is a basic calming technique with
an object -- this is more common in Buddhist meditation than in Hindu
meditation, as far as I know; that is, the Buddhists use mantras
(objects) in ways much more like tm than the Hindu traditions that I
have learned about do.

In another thread, I posted one of the most obvious tm sources that
would easily have been available to his wholly weaselness to
demonstrate this point. There has been a lot of angst amongst people
we have known (and a couple of our group were around the old fox at
one time and met hundreds of his people). This is why it seemed
important to make people aware that he is basically cheating people
with his promises of enlightenment and flying and the magic of
doorways facing east and so on and on and on. His biggest lie is that
bouncing on your butt will bring world peace ... I know he explains it
differently and I certainly know that world peace should be uppermost
in the minds of every inhabitant of this planet. But to con people out
of money for such a ridiculous scheme is shameful. As I/we have often
said, he obviously has no confidence whatsoever in any of the
fantasies he promotes. I think he has become a very bitter, very
angry, very vengful old man who is out to show people just what he can
do, ESPECIALLY if they have to give until it hurts.

The good that he has done is there, certainly, but I think it is more
accidental or (to him) more like collateral damage than anything else
or a necessary sacrifice. I feel sorry for the ones who have been
hurt.
Chet McCann
2004-01-28 04:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chagya
The old fox cobbled together bits of this and that and came up with
something to sell. He would have had no problem because all that time
with Guru Dev must have been wonderfully instructive.
I don't think he is in the least deficient in the business acumen or
human understanding departments. If he has ever proven anything, that
is certainly it. His meditation method is nothing new, actually,
although the package the the marketing skill are phenomenal.
I have no problem with the idea that he cobbled things together. You
might find it interesting and eye-opening to read *Living with the
Himalayan Masters* by Swami Rama (Himalayan Press, published sometime
around 1980, as I recall)... you can find it through a used-book
finder, if it's no longer in print. Swami Rama was hand-picked by his
guru, who visited his parents before Rama was born to make an
arrangement... then when Rama was an adolescent, the guru came to the
house and collected him. So S.R. was raised among the babas, sadhus,
and gurus. He largely learned from his guru, and imbibed his guru's
"atmsophere"... but the guru had no objections to him staying with
other yogis and gurus and learning from them too. He did it for weeks
and months at a time, for many, many years.

Also, if you want to read about Swami Rama's accomplishments and
enlightenment, you can read *Swami* by Doug Boyd.

I'm sure that Swami Rama was at least as eclectic as MMY. But MMY got
fully into being a resident of the West, and into being an
entrepreneur. Swami Rama visited the West, and was strudied in the
labs at the Meninger Institute (psychiatric training center in Topeka,
with neuroligical and physiological research labs). He was not by
nature a businessman.

... Chet
Chagya
2004-01-28 13:08:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chagya
The old fox cobbled together
[omission here]

Yes, I am familiar with Swami Rama.

There have been many very legitimate Hindu/Vedic exponents who have
visited the West and have shared with the West what, otherwise, would
have remained very useful knowledge obscured by impenetrable cultural
and linguistic barriers.

I have no problem with eclectic teachers. Their contributions have
been and remain very valuable.

My initial questions about the old fox's claims of purity of the
teaching, ancient ancestry of his teaching, his devotion to Guru Dev
(why, exactly, does everything have his name on it and not Guru
Dev's?), committment to world peace and so on only got bigger
questions for answers; more puzzling and more problematic questions
and increasingly unsatisfying and convoluted answers led to a
conviction that here was a giggling fraud with more pretention than a
red-eyed Jimmy Swaggart pleading for forgiveness (because he got
caught, not because he felt he had done something wrong).

The more we questioned, the more shocking were the answers. In
reference to Cold Blue's summary, one notices the fascinating
contradiction between his Light of the Himalayas debut (any word will
do, but we select only special words that bring us the grace of the
gods) and the curious nature of those words: a progression from bona
fide Hindu mantras to an increasingly made-up set of sounds. This,
coupled with an eclecticism that seems to have taken from the Buddhist
tradition and sold to the Hindu one as coming directly through the
grace of Guru Dev, began to make a very sour taste. As I said before,
the good he has done seems more accidental or as if he were compelled
to a necessary evil in order to accomplish his own ego-oriented goals.

One of our group once remarked to Jerry Jarvis that it was a good
thing "maharishi" had taken up business on the Ganges rather than Wall
Street. (Meaning, of course, that spiritual buiness was more
important). Jerry quipped: what makes you think he hasn't?

And so it began.
Phyllis Sheehan
2004-01-28 20:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chagya
Post by Chagya
The old fox cobbled together
[omission here]
Yes, I am familiar with Swami Rama.
There have been many very legitimate Hindu/Vedic exponents who have
visited the West and have shared with the West what, otherwise, would
have remained very useful knowledge obscured by impenetrable cultural
and linguistic barriers.
I have no problem with eclectic teachers. Their contributions have
been and remain very valuable.
My initial questions about the old fox's claims of purity of the
teaching, ancient ancestry of his teaching, his devotion to Guru Dev
(why, exactly, does everything have his name on it and not Guru
Dev's?), committment to world peace and so on only got bigger
questions for answers; more puzzling and more problematic questions
and increasingly unsatisfying and convoluted answers led to a
conviction that here was a giggling fraud with more pretention than a
red-eyed Jimmy Swaggart pleading for forgiveness (because he got
caught, not because he felt he had done something wrong).
The more we questioned, the more shocking were the answers. In
reference to Cold Blue's summary, one notices the fascinating
contradiction between his Light of the Himalayas debut (any word will
do, but we select only special words that bring us the grace of the
gods) and the curious nature of those words: a progression from bona
fide Hindu mantras to an increasingly made-up set of sounds.
******* Chagya,

My Mantra SHIRIM (As written in Minet.Org) is pronounced "SHEARIM," -
Type Mantra SHIRIM into Google and you get lots of anti-TM sites!
Then type MANTRA SHRIM into Google and you get approx 289 listings
regarding the mantra Shrim - 3rd on the list is a quote from
www.sanskritmantra.com......
"The mantra "Shrim" or Shreem is the seed sound for the principle of
abundance (Lakshmi, in the Hindu Pantheon.) If one says "shrim" a
hundred times, a certain increase in the potentiality of the sayer to
accumulate abundance is achieved. If one says "shrim" a thousand times
or a million, the result is correspondingly greater."

- It seems that the old fox has actually changed the mantra
pronunciation to make it seem unique!
After being initiated into TM -I truly believed that my mantra
"SHEARIM" was unique to me,boy was I chargrined to discover that I
shared this mantra with God Knows how many people!
- Now I'm even more pissed off because Goddess Lakshmi will ignore me
for pronouncing her name incorrectly - afterall Sanskrit is a very
precise chakra activating language!
*** From this point on I'll meditate effortlessly on the mantra SHREEM
- I'll keep you posted !

Phyllis *******


This,
Post by Chagya
coupled with an eclecticism that seems to have taken from the Buddhist
tradition and sold to the Hindu one as coming directly through the
grace of Guru Dev, began to make a very sour taste. As I said before,
the good he has done seems more accidental or as if he were compelled
to a necessary evil in order to accomplish his own ego-oriented goals.
One of our group once remarked to Jerry Jarvis that it was a good
thing "maharishi" had taken up business on the Ganges rather than Wall
Street. (Meaning, of course, that spiritual buiness was more
important). Jerry quipped: what makes you think he hasn't?
And so it began.
Chagya
2004-01-28 23:46:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Post by Chagya
Post by Chagya
The old fox cobbled together
[omission here]
Yes, as was noted, he started out with two actual mantras,
(pronounced) rahm and seerahm. So much for a holy tradition and the
purity of the teaching. He changed the pronunciations, changed the
spellings, made up new ones and so on. I learned this mantra, spelled
as you have here but he pronounced it to me as shrim, shring being for
men of the same age. The "we select the right mantra for the
individual" is totally dependent upon when your teacher learned
whatever he or she learned.

Although when he was giving mantras to new teachers he was very
insistant each one pronounce each mantra correctly (that is, like he
did) ... except for the gigantic course in La Antilla where he gave
out the mantras by earphone at about 50 or 75 at a time ... Of course,
he didn't hear anybody say anything so if your instructor was trained
in La Antilla, god knows what kind of pronunciations people ended up
with. He admitted in a private meeting with some of his personal staff
that it didn't matter how you said the mantra. One of his secretaries
who did the personal correspondence told us that someone had written
in saying he found he was saying his mantra backwards (who in the heck
knows what that must have been namah aing shri? ... he said to write
back and say it didn't matter). Either it didn't matter or he didn't
give a damn. Take your pick. (I think the mantras at minet.org are the
same as at trancenet.org, you might want to have a look-see ... be
sure to read Beacon Light of the Himalayas. It's an eyeopener, too, of
sorts.)

As far as sharing your mantra with lots of others (gotta give him
credit, you can sell a whispered word and never run out of stock),
someone once used the example of a box of crackers: you can give ten
people each a cracker. They all look alike. Then everyone takes one
bite. Now none looks quite like another.

As far as the actual value of this form of calming practise with an
object, I think it is very limited.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
My Mantra SHIRIM (As written in Minet.Org) is pronounced "SHEARIM," -
Type Mantra SHIRIM into Google and you get lots of anti-TM sites!
Then type MANTRA SHRIM into Google and you get approx 289 listings
regarding the mantra Shrim - 3rd on the list is a quote from
www.sanskritmantra.com......
"The mantra "Shrim" or Shreem is the seed sound for the principle of
abundance (Lakshmi, in the Hindu Pantheon.) If one says "shrim" a
hundred times, a certain increase in the potentiality of the sayer to
accumulate abundance is achieved. If one says "shrim" a thousand times
or a million, the result is correspondingly greater."
- It seems that the old fox has actually changed the mantra
pronunciation to make it seem unique!
After being initiated into TM -I truly believed that my mantra
"SHEARIM" was unique to me,boy was I chargrined to discover that I
shared this mantra with God Knows how many people!
- Now I'm even more pissed off because Goddess Lakshmi will ignore me
for pronouncing her name incorrectly - afterall Sanskrit is a very
precise chakra activating language!
*** From this point on I'll meditate effortlessly on the mantra SHREEM
- I'll keep you posted !
Phyllis *******
This,
Post by Chagya
coupled with an eclecticism that seems to have taken from the Buddhist
tradition and sold to the Hindu one as coming directly through the
grace of Guru Dev, began to make a very sour taste. As I said before,
the good he has done seems more accidental or as if he were compelled
to a necessary evil in order to accomplish his own ego-oriented goals.
One of our group once remarked to Jerry Jarvis that it was a good
thing "maharishi" had taken up business on the Ganges rather than Wall
Street. (Meaning, of course, that spiritual buiness was more
important). Jerry quipped: what makes you think he hasn't?
And so it began.
willytex
2004-01-29 03:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chagya
Yes, as was noted, he started out with two actual mantras,
You get all your TM news right here on this newsgroup, so cut the shit,
Suds.
willytex
2004-01-29 03:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Now I'm even more pissed off because Goddess Lakshmi
Phyliss - It's not a good idea to blaspheme the Gods.
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
will ignore me for pronouncing her name incorrectly -
You were already advised that the correct proniciation of the mantra is not
important in TM. Why are you being so gross?
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
*** From this point on I'll meditate effortlessly
By now you're probably completely off the TM program and I doubt that any
kind of checking will be able to help you get back on it. Unfortunately, now
you'll probably never know if TM works for you or not - you may not be even
practicing TM.

You'r radiating anti-TM, not the ME.
Chagya
2004-01-30 05:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chagya
The old fox cobbled together
******* Chagya,
My Mantra SHIRIM ...
[shortened at this point]
- It seems that the old fox has actually changed the mantra
pronunciation to make it seem unique!
see below for something even more unique!
After being initiated into TM -I truly believed that my mantra
"SHEARIM" was unique to me,boy was I chargrined to discover that I
shared this mantra with God Knows how many people!
see below -- so you suppose monks and nuns will start acting like
teenagers? or will teenagers start acting like monks and nuns!
- Now I'm even more pissed off because Goddess Lakshmi will ignore me
for pronouncing her name incorrectly - afterall Sanskrit is a very
precise chakra activating language!
Lakshmi won't ignore you if you have her in mind, no matter how you
pronounce the mantra.
*** From this point on I'll meditate effortlessly on the mantra SHREEM
- I'll keep you posted !
Phyllis *******
Phyllis, you may or may not see the irony here: one of our group was
trained by the wilely old ferret as an M-Group initiator. This was in
'74. Then, the purpose of being an "m-group' initiator was to teach tm
to monks and nuns who had taken the SCI course. The old fox gave these
two mantras 'aying' for monks and 'ayim' for nuns. He wrote the
mantras on a piece of paper which I have seen. This is the exact
spelling. Since one of our group trained in Fiuggi, the mantra list is
also confirmed!

But if we look at Steve Hanssan's site for mantras from the 1972
Fiuggi course, we find:

18-19 AYING (will girls want to become monks?)
20-21 AYIM (will boys want to become nuns?)

So 18-19/20-21 year olds were being given monastic mantras, if the
instructor trained in Fiuggi. And the "m-group" instructor was giving
out late adolescent mantras to monks and nuns.

If this were not such a pathetic disregard for his own preaching about
right mantra for the person and the crap about the purity of the
teaching, it would actually be kind of funny. As it is, it is just
more indication that he has no regard whatsoever for the individual.

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/t/tm/tmtechnique.htm?FACTNet
Chagya
2004-01-28 13:20:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chagya
The old fox
Chet, further to the message I just posted,

http://www.comics.com/creators/bc/

Today's cartoon, 28 January 2004 seems to sum up what many of us feel
the old fox did. Yes, some are satisfied and they probably don't visit
a site like this, nor should they. But some, like us (we feel) ought
to make sure there is some warning because little is accomplished if
people are suffering so the old weasel can feel good about his very
narcissistic self.
stevelf
2004-01-29 01:23:47 UTC
Permalink
---I've been reading your posts and am curious what your background
with the TMO was. I did the TTC/ Governor/ Executive Governor/ MIU
graduate, thing starting in '72. There came a time when I realized
that I had to take a deep, personal look at the nature of the carrot
that was being put in front of this rabbit's nose. I had some anger
toward's Maharishi, and dealt with some of my perceived "abandonement"
issues towards him.
But, most importantly for me, I came to realize that I made all
those decisions, and that I am not a VICTIM here. I can't say what
Maharishi's true agenda is ultimately. I used to think I knew and when
with him always felt on the razor's edge of the Great Spiritual
Superhighway! But looking back, I think I was perhaps giving up my
power to him, and in some wierd, lazy way wanted him to magically
transform me or something. It seems now like I was a very nieve,
impressionable youth who didn't want to grow up and take
responsibility for my own growth and life...
I don't blame Maharishi for anything. Now I make my own choices and
am truly grateful to him for the spiritual base that he gave me. He's
an extraordinary man. He was never God to me, as I know he was to many
people.
You seem so vindictive towards him. Is it paying off grinding that
axe in an ongoing way? I compassionately am curious of your agenda,
and feel your pain. I wish you all the best!
Uncle Tantra
2004-01-29 01:27:30 UTC
Permalink
Not sure who this was written to, but bravo!

"Pieeye," *this* is what a grownup is like.
You might try to learn from him.
Post by stevelf
---I've been reading your posts and am curious what your background
with the TMO was. I did the TTC/ Governor/ Executive Governor/ MIU
graduate, thing starting in '72. There came a time when I realized
that I had to take a deep, personal look at the nature of the carrot
that was being put in front of this rabbit's nose. I had some anger
toward's Maharishi, and dealt with some of my perceived "abandonement"
issues towards him.
But, most importantly for me, I came to realize that I made all
those decisions, and that I am not a VICTIM here. I can't say what
Maharishi's true agenda is ultimately. I used to think I knew and when
with him always felt on the razor's edge of the Great Spiritual
Superhighway! But looking back, I think I was perhaps giving up my
power to him, and in some wierd, lazy way wanted him to magically
transform me or something. It seems now like I was a very nieve,
impressionable youth who didn't want to grow up and take
responsibility for my own growth and life...
I don't blame Maharishi for anything. Now I make my own choices and
am truly grateful to him for the spiritual base that he gave me. He's
an extraordinary man. He was never God to me, as I know he was to many
people.
You seem so vindictive towards him. Is it paying off grinding that
axe in an ongoing way? I compassionately am curious of your agenda,
and feel your pain. I wish you all the best!
willytex
2004-01-29 03:07:17 UTC
Permalink
curious what your background with the TMO
Steve - What we've obviously got is a "tag-team" group of posters in Chagya
and Co.
stevelf
2004-01-29 16:12:03 UTC
Permalink
---My last post was directed towards Chagya. I'm still figuring out
how to navigate in here!
stevelf
2004-01-29 16:12:05 UTC
Permalink
---My last post was directed towards Chagya. I'm still figuring out
how to navigate in here!
Chagya
2004-01-29 13:09:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by stevelf
---I've been reading your posts and am curious what your background
with the TMO was. I did the TTC/ Governor/ Executive Governor/ MIU
graduate, thing starting in '72. There came a time when I realized
that I had to take a deep, personal look at the nature of the carrot
that was being put in front of this rabbit's nose. I had some anger
toward's Maharishi, and dealt with some of my perceived "abandonement"
issues towards him.
But, most importantly for me, I came to realize that I made all
those decisions, and that I am not a VICTIM here. I can't say what
Maharishi's true agenda is ultimately. I used to think I knew and when
with him always felt on the razor's edge of the Great Spiritual
Superhighway! But looking back, I think I was perhaps giving up my
power to him, and in some wierd, lazy way wanted him to magically
transform me or something. It seems now like I was a very nieve,
impressionable youth who didn't want to grow up and take
responsibility for my own growth and life...
I don't blame Maharishi for anything. Now I make my own choices and
am truly grateful to him for the spiritual base that he gave me. He's
an extraordinary man. He was never God to me, as I know he was to many
people.
You seem so vindictive towards him. Is it paying off grinding that
axe in an ongoing way? I compassionately am curious of your agenda,
and feel your pain. I wish you all the best!
Steve -- I am presuming that you have addressed this to Chagya.
Basically, our backgrounds are the same, that is, we both came to
realize that we had been hoodwinked. I completely sympathize with your
experience of being in "maharishi's" presence. And that is precisely
why you detect some no small axe grinding coming from me. I really
don't make any effort to mask it, although some do and, like you, some
have completely gotten over it. I think you are completely on the
right track, for whatever my thoughts about that are worth.

I continue to wrestle with my pissed-off feelings because "maharishi"
is so charming, so charismatic and so mystical. He leads you down the
garden path, about which you could not be more pleased, and leaves
you, as it were, holding the bag. Then, and you have made a very wise
observation here, you realize that all of this was your own doing.
With your eyes wide open he has picked your pocket. He told you to
keep your eyes open and then asked just how deep your pockets were,
where they were and could you please hold them open for him.

Whether we are talking about money pockets or spiritual ones, we let
him dig as deeply as he wanted and then realized that we were on our
own.

We have always been on our own, of course, but for me the bile and
anger froths up when I think about the spiritual damage this does, how
it affects our ability to trust, how it gets our suspicions in the way
when we think we have founding something we want to trust.

The spiritual journey is one of trust. What gets my hackles up is that
the spiritual journey is very vital to the fullness of our humanity
and many turn their backs on it completely after a nasty dose of
"maharishi" fleecing.

Fortunately, not everyone has this reaction and many have continued
their spiritual journies. What we were hoping for was to let people
know that the whole spiritual journey is not the pit-fall
"maharishi's" can be.

You have posted an excellent message, one which I hope many will take
to heart where mine/ours fails.

Thank you.
ColdBluICE
2004-01-29 20:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Chagya wrote:....
Post by stevelf
---I've been reading your posts and am curious what your background
with the TMO was. I did the TTC/ Governor/ Executive Governor/ MIU
graduate, thing starting in '72. There came a time when I realized
that I had to take a deep, personal look at the nature of the carrot
that was being put in front of this rabbit's nose. I had some anger
toward's Maharishi, and dealt with some of my perceived "abandonement"
issues towards him.
But, most importantly for me, I came to realize that I made all
those decisions, and that I am not a VICTIM here. I can't say what
Maharishi's true agenda is ultimately. I used to think I knew and when
with him always felt on the razor's edge of the Great Spiritual
Superhighway! But looking back, I think I was perhaps giving up my
power to him, and in some wierd, lazy way wanted him to magically
transform me or something. It seems now like I was a very nieve,
impressionable youth who didn't want to grow up and take
responsibility for my own growth and life...
I don't blame Maharishi for anything. Now I make my own choices and
am truly grateful to him for the spiritual base that he gave me. He's
an extraordinary man. He was never God to me, as I know he was to many
people.
You seem so vindictive towards him. Is it paying off grinding that
axe in an ongoing way? I compassionately am curious of your agenda,
and feel your pain. I wish you all the best!
Steve -- I am presuming that you have addressed this to Chagya.
Basically, our backgrounds are the same, that is, we both came to
realize that we had been hoodwinked. I completely sympathize with your
experience of being in "maharishi's" presence. And that is precisely
why you detect some no small axe grinding coming from me. I really
don't make any effort to mask it, although some do and, like you, some
have completely gotten over it. I think you are completely on the
right track, for whatever my thoughts about that are worth.
-Please do not minimize the "axe-grinding".. it serves a very
valuable purpose
Reliving your experiences, and venting your anger here helps the
curious beginner (or the person looking into starting "tm") understand
the true nature of the beast/Lil MishMashi Mahesh.
I continue to wrestle with my pissed-off feelings because "maharishi"
is so charming, so charismatic and so mystical. He leads you down the
garden path, about which you could not be more pleased, and leaves
you, as it were, holding the bag. Then, and you have made a very wise
observation here, you realize that all of this was your own doing.
With your eyes wide open he has picked your pocket. He told you to
keep your eyes open and then asked just how deep your pockets were,
where they were and could you please hold them open for him.
-See that is the precious and *priceless pearls of wisdom* that you
can freely offer anyone that is just beginning (or thinking of
starting) "tm".
Whether we are talking about money pockets or spiritual ones, we let
him dig as deeply as he wanted and then realized that we were on our
own.
We have always been on our own, of course, but for me the bile and
anger froths up when I think about the spiritual damage this does, how
it affects our ability to trust, how it gets our suspicions in the way
when we think we have founding something we want to trust.
-And this *pearl* is invaluable..to the person that may be
considering leaving "tm"..or beginning to have doubts.
The spiritual journey is one of trust. What gets my hackles up is that
the spiritual journey is very vital to the fullness of our humanity
and many turn their backs on it completely after a nasty dose of
"maharishi" fleecing.
-See.. no matter how you slice it..you still come with same
conclusion... Lil MishMashi Mahesh is the biggest "spiritual" fraud of
the last millenia.
Fortunately, not everyone has this reaction and many have continued
their spiritual journies. What we were hoping for was to let people
know that the whole spiritual journey is not the pit-fall
"maharishi's" can be.
You have posted an excellent message, one which I hope many will take
to heart where mine/ours fails.
Thank you.
Phyllis Sheehan
2004-02-01 00:09:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by ColdBluICE
Chagya wrote:....
Post by stevelf
---I've been reading your posts and am curious what your background
with the TMO was. I did the TTC/ Governor/ Executive Governor/ MIU
graduate, thing starting in '72. There came a time when I realized
that I had to take a deep, personal look at the nature of the carrot
that was being put in front of this rabbit's nose. I had some anger
toward's Maharishi, and dealt with some of my perceived "abandonement"
issues towards him.
But, most importantly for me, I came to realize that I made all
those decisions, and that I am not a VICTIM here. I can't say what
Maharishi's true agenda is ultimately. I used to think I knew and when
with him always felt on the razor's edge of the Great Spiritual
Superhighway! But looking back, I think I was perhaps giving up my
power to him, and in some wierd, lazy way wanted him to magically
transform me or something. It seems now like I was a very nieve,
impressionable youth who didn't want to grow up and take
responsibility for my own growth and life...
I don't blame Maharishi for anything. Now I make my own choices and
am truly grateful to him for the spiritual base that he gave me. He's
an extraordinary man. He was never God to me, as I know he was to many
people.
You seem so vindictive towards him. Is it paying off grinding that
axe in an ongoing way? I compassionately am curious of your agenda,
and feel your pain. I wish you all the best!
Steve -- I am presuming that you have addressed this to Chagya.
Basically, our backgrounds are the same, that is, we both came to
realize that we had been hoodwinked. I completely sympathize with your
experience of being in "maharishi's" presence. And that is precisely
why you detect some no small axe grinding coming from me. I really
don't make any effort to mask it, although some do and, like you, some
have completely gotten over it. I think you are completely on the
right track, for whatever my thoughts about that are worth.
-Please do not minimize the "axe-grinding".. it serves a very
valuable purpose
Reliving your experiences, and venting your anger here helps the
curious beginner (or the person looking into starting "tm") understand
the true nature of the beast/Lil MishMashi Mahesh.
I continue to wrestle with my pissed-off feelings because "maharishi"
is so charming, so charismatic and so mystical. He leads you down the
garden path, about which you could not be more pleased, and leaves
you, as it were, holding the bag. Then, and you have made a very wise
observation here, you realize that all of this was your own doing.
With your eyes wide open he has picked your pocket. He told you to
keep your eyes open and then asked just how deep your pockets were,
where they were and could you please hold them open for him.
-See that is the precious and *priceless pearls of wisdom* that you
can freely offer anyone that is just beginning (or thinking of
starting) "tm".
Whether we are talking about money pockets or spiritual ones, we let
him dig as deeply as he wanted and then realized that we were on our
own.
We have always been on our own, of course, but for me the bile and
anger froths up when I think about the spiritual damage this does, how
it affects our ability to trust, how it gets our suspicions in the way
when we think we have founding something we want to trust.
-And this *pearl* is invaluable..to the person that may be
considering leaving "tm"..or beginning to have doubts.
The spiritual journey is one of trust. What gets my hackles up is that
the spiritual journey is very vital to the fullness of our humanity
and many turn their backs on it completely after a nasty dose of
"maharishi" fleecing.
-See.. no matter how you slice it..you still come with same
conclusion... Lil MishMashi Mahesh is the biggest "spiritual" fraud of
the last millenia.
Fortunately, not everyone has this reaction and many have continued
their spiritual journies. What we were hoping for was to let people
know that the whole spiritual journey is not the pit-fall
"maharishi's" can be.
You have posted an excellent message, one which I hope many will take
to heart where mine/ours fails.
Thank you.
Hi Chagya,

Was it all a complete experiment?

MMY got paid by his "Guinea pigs" whilst he experimented on them ?

Phillis
Stu
2004-02-01 04:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Hi Chagya,
Was it all a complete experiment?
MMY got paid by his "Guinea pigs" whilst he experimented on them ?
Phillis
I personally think the ways of the Maharishi and the TMO are born more out
of innocence and ignorance. I don't think they are smart enough to create
these types of deception intentionally.

Take a look at real masters of the art such a Rev Moon, Oral Roberts or L.
Ron. If Maharishi really had the public relation smarts of these guys,
today in this environment, with people truly searching out yogic solutions
in the mainstream, the TMO properly run could have a virtual monopoly on the
direction of western consciousness.

Instead they have opted out in a shower of bad PR moves, and wasted tactics.
--
~Stu
Billy Smith
2004-02-01 13:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stu
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Hi Chagya,
Was it all a complete experiment?
MMY got paid by his "Guinea pigs" whilst he experimented on them ?
Phillis
I personally think the ways of the Maharishi and the TMO are born more out
of innocence and ignorance. I don't think they are smart enough to create
these types of deception intentionally.
Take a look at real masters of the art such a Rev Moon, Oral Roberts or L.
Ron. If Maharishi really had the public relation smarts of these guys,
today in this environment, with people truly searching out yogic solutions
in the mainstream, the TMO properly run could have a virtual monopoly on the
direction of western consciousness.
Instead they have opted out in a shower of bad PR moves, and wasted tactics.
Hi Stu and all pro and anti TM'ers -

First and foremost TM worked for me,and I don't believe that MMY made
it up !Phyllis writes down the way her mantra is pronounced....
- SNIP -My Mantra SHIRIM (As written in Minet.Org) is pronounced
"SHEARIM," -

There is nothing at all wrong with this pronounciation - and The
mention of Goddess Lakshimi - these Gods and Goddesses became
associated with the mantra sounds long after the mantras were
discovered by sages in the fourth state of consciouness or "Turiya"
In fact in the Ancient SAIVA UPANISHADS there is a piece on how each
letter of the Sanskrit alphabet is a mantra or Bija mantra in it's own
right.

The way the various bija mantras as pronounced in TM are correct,and
their whole purpose is to act as a vechicle for transcending into pure
consciousness

Regards,

Billy
Stu
2004-02-01 23:24:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Billy Smith
Post by Stu
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Hi Chagya,
Was it all a complete experiment?
MMY got paid by his "Guinea pigs" whilst he experimented on them ?
Phillis
I personally think the ways of the Maharishi and the TMO are born more out
of innocence and ignorance. I don't think they are smart enough to create
these types of deception intentionally.
Take a look at real masters of the art such a Rev Moon, Oral Roberts or L.
Ron. If Maharishi really had the public relation smarts of these guys,
today in this environment, with people truly searching out yogic solutions
in the mainstream, the TMO properly run could have a virtual monopoly on the
direction of western consciousness.
Instead they have opted out in a shower of bad PR moves, and wasted tactics.
Hi Stu and all pro and anti TM'ers -
First and foremost TM worked for me,and I don't believe that MMY made
it up !Phyllis writes down the way her mantra is pronounced....
- SNIP -My Mantra SHIRIM (As written in Minet.Org) is pronounced
"SHEARIM," -
There is nothing at all wrong with this pronounciation - and The
mention of Goddess Lakshimi - these Gods and Goddesses became
associated with the mantra sounds long after the mantras were
discovered by sages in the fourth state of consciouness or "Turiya"
In fact in the Ancient SAIVA UPANISHADS there is a piece on how each
letter of the Sanskrit alphabet is a mantra or Bija mantra in it's own
right.
The way the various bija mantras as pronounced in TM are correct,and
their whole purpose is to act as a vechicle for transcending into pure
consciousness
Regards,
Billy
I think I would go a step further to express that the associations of Hindu
gods with the mantras is not only irrelevant but is detrimental to the
practice of TM. One should learn the sound of their mantra. With time it
may change. Thats okay. And if it is taught different in the UK than the
US so be it. I would bet that over the last several millennium the Sanskrit
sounds have changed as well. I submit that as long as those changes are
part of the nature of people in different times and places that is really
okay.
--
~Stu
Billy Smith
2004-02-02 02:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stu
Post by Billy Smith
Post by Stu
Post by Phyllis Sheehan
Hi Chagya,
Was it all a complete experiment?
MMY got paid by his "Guinea pigs" whilst he experimented on them ?
Phillis
I personally think the ways of the Maharishi and the TMO are born more out
of innocence and ignorance. I don't think they are smart enough to create
these types of deception intentionally.
Take a look at real masters of the art such a Rev Moon, Oral Roberts or L.
Ron. If Maharishi really had the public relation smarts of these guys,
today in this environment, with people truly searching out yogic solutions
in the mainstream, the TMO properly run could have a virtual monopoly on the
direction of western consciousness.
Instead they have opted out in a shower of bad PR moves, and wasted tactics.
Hi Stu and all pro and anti TM'ers -
First and foremost TM worked for me,and I don't believe that MMY made
it up !Phyllis writes down the way her mantra is pronounced....
- SNIP -My Mantra SHIRIM (As written in Minet.Org) is pronounced
"SHEARIM," -
There is nothing at all wrong with this pronounciation - and The
mention of Goddess Lakshimi - these Gods and Goddesses became
associated with the mantra sounds long after the mantras were
discovered by sages in the fourth state of consciouness or "Turiya"
In fact in the Ancient SAIVA UPANISHADS there is a piece on how each
letter of the Sanskrit alphabet is a mantra or Bija mantra in it's own
right.
The way the various bija mantras as pronounced in TM are correct,and
their whole purpose is to act as a vechicle for transcending into pure
consciousness
Regards,
Billy
I think I would go a step further to express that the associations of Hindu
gods with the mantras is not only irrelevant but is detrimental to the
practice of TM. One should learn the sound of their mantra. With time it
may change. Thats okay. And if it is taught different in the UK than the
US so be it. I would bet that over the last several millennium the Sanskrit
sounds have changed as well. I submit that as long as those changes are
part of the nature of people in different times and places that is really
okay.
Stu,

I agree !

As you are probably aware - I know all the TM mantras,and they are
unique.
They are ideal vechicles for transcending.
They don't need a Puja to be effective,they just need regular daily
use !
***** If I took over from MMY tomorrow morning, I'd drop all the
advanced techniques,and the Siddhis,and I'd go right back to
basics,and within 5 years My TM would be the Market Leader in Holistic
Self Developement Techniques,and World Peace would be a real
Probability!

Kind Regards,

Billy

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