Discussion:
Mantra Yoga
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p***@gmail.com
2012-08-24 15:20:56 UTC
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The Aryan-speakers brought 'Mantra Yoga' to South Asia before
1500 BCE, but 'bija' mantras came much latter, during the Gupta
Age in India, after the rise of the bhakti sects. Bija mantras
do not occur in the Vedas or in the Brahma Sutra.

At some point, we all are going to have to face the historical
facts: the bija mantras used in both Tantric Buddhism and in
Hindu Yoga are made-up sounds that are found in any common
household, heard around the house every day, or from the sounds
found in nature. Bija mantras are NOT revealed or cognized or
'seen' by the monad or by some mythical 'rishi'.

All mantric practices stem from the ancient shamnistic practice
of Oddiyana, that is Buddhists of Trans-Himalya, hence to
India. The Mantrayna was adopted, with modifications, by the
Shiva and Vaishanava sects as Hindu tantricism following the
Gupta Age.

For example, the bija mantra 'phat' is called the astra 'weapon'
bija used as an aggressive mantra from the earliest times. The
sound of phat, to the Indian ear, conveys the sensation of
explosion onomatopoetically.

According to Bharati, in Hindi, 'phat' is a very common
colloquial household term for 'burst, explode', in both
intransitive and transitive use, as in a two wheeled,
two-stroke, motorized rickshaw, thus a 'phata phata'!

"From this, a causative verb pharna is formed. The motor-cycle
rickshaw in Delhi is called 'phat phata' by its drivers; phatki
is a fire-cracker. Once a syllable like this has been accepted
into esoteric usage, analogous syllables will readily follow,
such as a nickname for God, as in Agnihotra, i.e. fire from the
root 'hot'. If the onomatopoetic datum can be linked with part
of a meaningful morpheme, a more complex mantra would grow of
their combination" (116).

Works cited:

Phat!: (pronounced 'fot') phoneme; Buddhist Hybrid-Sanskrit;
causative verb? 1. Crack! 2. Snap! 3. Pop! 4. Meaningless
sound. 5. Gibberish. 6. Bija mantra - sometimes referred to
as the weapon mantra also, in that, it destroys obstacles.

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/

Read more:

'The Tantric Tradition'
by Swami Ageananda Bharati
Rider, 1965

Subject: Its Not What You Think!
Author: Willytex
Forum: alt.meditation.transcendental,
alt.yoga, alt.meditation
Thread: Phat! A magic word for protection?
Updated: August 26, 2003
Bhairitu
2012-08-24 18:16:52 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
The Aryan-speakers brought 'Mantra Yoga' to South Asia before
1500 BCE, but 'bija' mantras came much latter, during the Gupta
Age in India, after the rise of the bhakti sects. Bija mantras
do not occur in the Vedas or in the Brahma Sutra.
At some point, we all are going to have to face the historical
facts: the bija mantras used in both Tantric Buddhism and in
Hindu Yoga are made-up sounds that are found in any common
household, heard around the house every day, or from the sounds
found in nature. Bija mantras are NOT revealed or cognized or
'seen' by the monad or by some mythical 'rishi'.
All mantric practices stem from the ancient shamnistic practice
of Oddiyana, that is Buddhists of Trans-Himalya, hence to
India. The Mantrayna was adopted, with modifications, by the
Shiva and Vaishanava sects as Hindu tantricism following the
Gupta Age.
For example, the bija mantra 'phat' is called the astra 'weapon'
bija used as an aggressive mantra from the earliest times. The
sound of phat, to the Indian ear, conveys the sensation of
explosion onomatopoetically.
According to Bharati, in Hindi, 'phat' is a very common
colloquial household term for 'burst, explode', in both
intransitive and transitive use, as in a two wheeled,
two-stroke, motorized rickshaw, thus a 'phata phata'!
"From this, a causative verb pharna is formed. The motor-cycle
rickshaw in Delhi is called 'phat phata' by its drivers; phatki
is a fire-cracker. Once a syllable like this has been accepted
into esoteric usage, analogous syllables will readily follow,
such as a nickname for God, as in Agnihotra, i.e. fire from the
root 'hot'. If the onomatopoetic datum can be linked with part
of a meaningful morpheme, a more complex mantra would grow of
their combination" (116).
Phat!: (pronounced 'fot') phoneme; Buddhist Hybrid-Sanskrit;
causative verb? 1. Crack! 2. Snap! 3. Pop! 4. Meaningless
sound. 5. Gibberish. 6. Bija mantra - sometimes referred to
as the weapon mantra also, in that, it destroys obstacles.
http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/
'The Tantric Tradition'
by Swami Ageananda Bharati
Rider, 1965
Subject: Its Not What You Think!
Author: Willytex
Forum: alt.meditation.transcendental,
alt.yoga, alt.meditation
Thread: Phat! A magic word for protection?
Updated: August 26, 2003
The Reverend Willy takes the pulpit again (especially on FFL since many
of the TB'ers were web posters and flummoxed by the probably brief 999
error).
p***@gmail.com
2012-08-26 14:38:31 UTC
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The Aryan-speakers brought 'Mantra Yoga' to South Asia...
The Reverend Willy takes the pulpit again...
So, did the Aryan-speakers bring 'Mantra Yoga' to South Asia?

If not they must be indigenous to the Asian Subcontinent. If
they came from outside India, where and when did they come to
India and why?

Most reasonable people accept the timelines and chronologies
of both Indian and western scholarship based on the historical
evidence, not on any Indian traditions. For example, all the
evidence supports the conclusion that the Vedas were composed
after the invention of the spoked wheel and the use of the
horse as a conveyance - there is no evidence for the use of
either before 1700 B.C. in India.

According to modern scholarship, based on historical evidence,
the Aryan speakers entered into India around 1700 B.C., just
as the Indus Civilization was declining. The evidence is
linguistic, archaeological, and textual.

Historian agree that there is no mention of the Indus Valley
Civilization in the Vedas, therefore the Vedas must have been
composed after 1700 B.C. While there is no mention of the
Indus Valley Civilization, the Rig Veda mentions the use of
iron, which was not smelted in India until after 1500 B.C.

In contrast, according to Indian tradition, the Aryans were
a race of people who spoke an eternal language called Sanskrit
over a million years ago on Mt. Meru, before homo sapiens
sapiens came out of Africa, before the dawn of civilization,
before the invention of the wheel, before writing and the
invention of agriculture. Go figure.
Peter the great
2012-08-26 18:44:12 UTC
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skrev i meddelelsen news:c235df88-b216-4eba-ab61-***@googlegroups.com...

The Aryan-speakers brought 'Mantra Yoga' to South Asia before
1500 BCE, but 'bija' mantras came much latter, during the Gupta
Age in India, after the rise of the bhakti sects. Bija mantras
do not occur in the Vedas or in the Brahma Sutra.

HI Willy long time no see. But as see it all Indian religion come from the
Dravidians, there is only 2 brahma temples in all of India and guess why.
But is TM of a tantric nature??
p***@gmail.com
2012-08-27 19:10:44 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
The Aryan-speakers brought 'Mantra Yoga' to South
Asia before 1500 BCE, but 'bija' mantras came much
latter, during the Gupta Age in India...
But as see it all Indian religion come from the
Dravidians, there is only 2 brahma temples in all
of India and guess why.
It has been pretty much established that the Vedas
were composed before 1500 BC and that they are a
form of 'mantra yoga', that is, they advocate the
recitation of mantras in order to propitiate their
gods. But, apparently there were no 'bija' mantras
back before 200 BC in India.

Did the bijas come from the Dravidians?
Post by p***@gmail.com
But is TM of a tantric nature??
'TM' is almost pure tantrism. But, the question is,
why did the Saraswati Sannyasins of 800 AD adopt the
tantric point-of-view?

"The srividya, because it consists of "indestructible
seed" syllables (bijaksara) rather than words,
transcends such "mundane" considerations as semantic
meaning. Accordingly, a bija-only mantra is not merely
esoteric but inherently superior.

'Because it is purely seed-syllables [bijasaras] is
the purest form of mantra. It does not make a request
or praise god, it is God's purest expression. Gayatri
is great but it cannot match srividya because it is
still in language; it is Veda and mantra but when
transformed into the srividya its greatness increases"
(95).

Work cited:

"Auspicious Wisdon"
The texts and traditions of Srividya Sakta Tantrism
in South India.
by Douglas Renfrew Brooks
SUNY 1992
Bhairitu
2012-08-28 20:28:57 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by p***@gmail.com
The Aryan-speakers brought 'Mantra Yoga' to South
Asia before 1500 BCE, but 'bija' mantras came much
latter, during the Gupta Age in India...
But as see it all Indian religion come from the
Dravidians, there is only 2 brahma temples in all
of India and guess why.
It has been pretty much established that the Vedas
were composed before 1500 BC and that they are a
form of 'mantra yoga', that is, they advocate the
recitation of mantras in order to propitiate their
gods. But, apparently there were no 'bija' mantras
back before 200 BC in India.
Did the bijas come from the Dravidians?
Post by p***@gmail.com
But is TM of a tantric nature??
'TM' is almost pure tantrism. But, the question is,
why did the Saraswati Sannyasins of 800 AD adopt the
tantric point-of-view?
"The srividya, because it consists of "indestructible
seed" syllables (bijaksara) rather than words,
transcends such "mundane" considerations as semantic
meaning. Accordingly, a bija-only mantra is not merely
esoteric but inherently superior.
'Because it is purely seed-syllables [bijasaras] is
the purest form of mantra. It does not make a request
or praise god, it is God's purest expression. Gayatri
is great but it cannot match srividya because it is
still in language; it is Veda and mantra but when
transformed into the srividya its greatness increases"
(95).
"Auspicious Wisdon"
The texts and traditions of Srividya Sakta Tantrism
in South India.
by Douglas Renfrew Brooks
SUNY 1992
And how many people did teach TM, Willy?
p***@gmail.com
2012-08-31 19:27:57 UTC
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And how many people did teach TM...
If you count all the students of MMY, the Sri
Sri and the Deepak, I'd guess you could say that
thousands of people teach and millions of people
practice 'TM', if by that you mean a meditation
that is transcendental.

Apparently the Sri Sri is now HUGE in India!

'Thousands join Maharishi's funeral'
http://tinyurl.com/9z2p3hf
Bhairitu
2012-08-31 20:08:58 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
And how many people did teach TM...
If you count all the students of MMY, the Sri
Sri and the Deepak, I'd guess you could say that
thousands of people teach and millions of people
practice 'TM', if by that you mean a meditation
that is transcendental.
Apparently the Sri Sri is now HUGE in India!
'Thousands join Maharishi's funeral'
http://tinyurl.com/9z2p3hf
Sorry that should have read:

And how many people did *you* teach TM, Willy?"
p***@gmail.com
2012-09-03 22:10:17 UTC
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Post by Bhairitu
And how many people did *you* teach TM, Willy?"
And how many people did *you* teach TM, Bharata?"

I don't see your name listed on the TMO approved
Teachers list.

You can't really 'teach' a meditation that is
transcendental. About all you can do is check
your student's progress - you can't make your
student get enlightned. According to MMY, any
technique that provides the opportunity to
transcend could be termed 'TM'.

You would probably know this if you had read
the Soundalahari, and were a practicing tantric,
not just some follower of some deviant cult.

But, I've taught lots of people how to meditate
- I can teach anything I want to for free, as
long as I don't call it 'TM'.
Bhairitu
2012-09-04 19:00:03 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Bhairitu
And how many people did *you* teach TM, Willy?"
And how many people did *you* teach TM, Bharata?"
Around 20. I became a teacher too late to get the rush of initiates of
the early 70s. I had friends who claim they taught over 1000 or more.
The following year when MIU started graduating classes the rule came out
that we had to give over teaching to the new graduates. Bad move
because most of them had little experience in practical life and turned
off people who came to learn.
Post by p***@gmail.com
I don't see your name listed on the TMO approved
Teachers list.
I walked away from the TMO in 1985. It has little to offer if you want
to deeply learn about yogic concepts. For instance they don't teach
mantra shastra at all which was something that really interested me. TM
is all about making money.
Post by p***@gmail.com
You can't really 'teach' a meditation that is
transcendental. About all you can do is check
your student's progress - you can't make your
student get enlightned. According to MMY, any
technique that provides the opportunity to
transcend could be termed 'TM'.
That's typical Willy doublespeak and it and $3 will get you a latte at
Starbucks. TM teachers were taught to teach TM which is a technique and
which other than using a tightly defined script isn't that much
different from teaching other mantra meditation methods, many of which
are free.
Post by p***@gmail.com
You would probably know this if you had read
the Soundalahari, and were a practicing tantric,
not just some follower of some deviant cult.
I find studying with actual tantrics far better than getting confused by
reading books.
Post by p***@gmail.com
But, I've taught lots of people how to meditate
- I can teach anything I want to for free, as
long as I don't call it 'TM'.
So if your students go crazy from your teaching what do you do?
p***@yahoo.com
2012-09-07 14:18:34 UTC
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Post by Bhairitu
I find studying with actual tantrics far better than getting
confused by reading books...
So you got confused. The Tantras are books that specify the bija
mantras - how would you know the secret bijas unless you confirm
with the scriptures?

You may be just taking your teacher's word for everything, but
you need more than just hearsay in order to be successful in
practicing the Tantras.

The mystical diagram with TM bija mantras inscribed thereon
which is located at the Sringeri Matha in India, which was
installed there by the Adi Shankaracharya in the year 808 A.D.
upon which sits Sri Rajarajeshwari.

According to tradition, Sri Shankaracharya, was the author of
the Soundaryalahari and the Anandandlahari.
P.N.
2012-09-07 17:28:43 UTC
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Post by Bhairitu
I find studying with actual tantrics far better than getting
confused by reading books...
So you got confused. The Tantras are books that specify the bija
mantras - how would you know the secret bijas unless you confirm
with the scriptures?
You may be just taking your teacher's word for everything, but
you need more than just hearsay in order to be successful in
practicing the Tantras.
What is the holy tradition? is it the shastra (the written word) or is it
our Master speaking. When the guru is absent studies of the holy shastra is
only source we may have.
p***@gmail.com
2012-09-08 15:11:45 UTC
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Post by P.N.
Post by p***@yahoo.com
You may be just taking your teacher's word for everything,
but you need more than just hearsay in order to be
successful in practicing the Tantras.
What is the holy tradition? is it the shastra (the written
word) or is it our Master speaking. When the guru is absent
studies of the holy shastra is only source we may have...
The question is, where did the bija mantras come from? Were
they just made up by someone, or do they have any scriptural
foundation?

Bija 'mantras', by definition, have no semantic meaning -
that's why they're called 'mantras' instead of being called
'words'. If the bijas were Sanskrit words, there would be no
need for a definition of them, since their meaning would be
obvious to anyone who could read a Sanskrit lexicon.

So, let's review: in basic TM you get the single seed sound
(bija) and the fertilizer, and you get the simple
instructions for the correct angle to dive. You do NOT get
any supposed 'nicknames of the gods', or any esoteric
metaphysics or any promises to reach enlightenment in 5-7
years. You only get one single bija mantra in TM initation.

"...it has now been established that at least two of the
most sacred bija-mantras, out of the fifteen, contained in
the Sound Arya La Hari, are in fact, TM bija-mantras.

Now, if the Adi Shankara wrote the Sounda, then he must
have included the fifteen bijas contained within, would he
not?"

Read more:

From: Willytex
Subject: Guru Dev and Mantrayana
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
Date: December 17, 2003
http://tinyurl.com/ykp6rhs

On the origin of the TM bija mantras:

"Bija mantras issued by TM are ''Sri Vidya'' bija mantras.
To be fair, I won't go into what they are, but if one
listens to all TM mantras, except for 2, they are 2 or 3
syllable, and this is a very important component of the
technique..."

From: Billy Smith
Subject: Re: Guru Dev and "Sri Vidya"
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental
Date: April 22, 2003
http://tinyurl.com/ye8my2

"You are getting "warmer" when it comes to understanding
TM's origins with your posts regarding the Shankaracharya
tradition and its practice of Srividya..."

From: James Duffy
Subject: Re: TM: Siva Sutra
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental,
alt.yoga, alt.meditation
Date: September 21, 2003
http://tinyurl.com/yjwa2yr
P.N.
2012-08-28 08:35:24 UTC
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"Willy Tex" skrev i meddelelsen news


skrev i meddelelsen news:c235df88-b216-4eba-ab61-***@googlegroups.com...

The Aryan-speakers brought 'Mantra Yoga' to South Asia before
1500 BCE, but 'bija' mantras came much latter, during the Gupta
Age in India, after the rise of the bhakti sects. Bija mantras
do not occur in the Vedas or in the Brahma Sutra.

HI Willy long time no see. But as see it all Indian religion come from the
Dravidians, there is only 2 brahma temples in all of India and guess why.
But is TM of a tantric nature??

Did the bijas come from the Dravidians?
Post by Peter the great
But is TM of a tantric nature??
'TM' is almost pure tantrism. But, the question is,
why did the Saraswati Sannyasins of 800 AD adopt the
tantric point-of-view?

Maharishi I am told denied that TM was such a thing. But even if we believe
that TM is a tantric meditation (TM;-) the Bija mantras must be tantric in
nature, because how can you have a tantric meditation if the mantras are not
tantric.
p***@gmail.com
2012-08-31 19:40:40 UTC
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...the Bija mantras must be tantric in nature,
because how can you have a tantric meditation
if the mantras are not?
So, let's sum up.

Sringeri is the seat of the Saraswati Dasanami
lineage, founded by the Adi Shankaracharya in
the seventh centruy A.D. At Sringeri, the Adi
Shankaracharya placed a Sri Chakra (mystical
diagram) on the mandir with the TM bija mantras
inscribed thereon.

Shringeri:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shringeri

Then, the Adi Shankaracharya composed the
Saundaryalahari, and included the sixteen TM
bija mantras therein. According to historians,
the sixteenth bija mantra, 'Srim', was added
to the fifteen as fertilizer for the other
fifteen.

Soundarya Lahari:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundarya_Lahari

All the Saraswati adherents worship the Sri
Vidya, which translated means, "Auspicious
Knowledge of the Transcendent", that is,
'Knowledge is structured in Consciousness'.

Sri Vidya:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_vidya

As described by the Adi's root guru,
Gaudapadacharya, who wrote a concise commentary
on the Mandukya Upanishad, there are three
states of consciousness, and the Turyia, the
Fourth, that is, Pure Consciousness, which is
transcendental or beyond, to the three common
states.

Gaudapada:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudapada

Mandukya:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandukya_Upanishad

Swami Brahmananda Saraswati's guru was
Krishnananda Saraswati. Swami Brahmananda
Saraswati was succeeed by Swami Shantananda
Saraswati. Swami Brahmananda was the master of
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, who was instrumental in
establishing the TMO in Kerala State, in
Southern India, where Swami Brahmananda was
very popular.

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharishi_Mahesh_Yogi

According to Swami Svarupananda, Guru Dev used to
initiate sadhaks with the bija mantra of their
respective istadevatas. Swami Svarupananda
Saraswati said that the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
used to pass out bija mantras while sitting under
a picture of his master, Swami Brahmananda
Saraswati.

Beacon Light of the Himalayas:
http://tinyurl.com/ydl84gy

According to Swami Rama of the Himalayas, Guru
Dev was a proponent of the Sri Vidya, and that
Guru Dev used to worship a ruby-encrusted Sri
Chakra with the TM bijas mantras inscribed on
it.

'Living With the Himalayan Masters'
By Swami Rama

So, I guess we can conlude that Swami
Krishnananda of Uttar Kashi was a Himalayan
Master. And, we can also conclude that Swami
Brahmananda, his disciple, was a Himalayan
Master. And I guess we can conclude that Swami
Rama was a Himalayan Master, since he founded
the Himalayan Institute.

Uttar Kashi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Kashi_District

So, to sum up:

Mahesh Yogi came out of the Himalayas and he
looks like a Himalayan Master. So, if someone
comes out of the Himalayas after studying with a
Himalayan Master, and Mahesh Yogi looks and talks
like a Himalayan Master, then he must be some
kind of Himalayan Master.

And, since people all over India call him a
Master, then he is probably a Master of some
kind.

So, since the TM bija mantras came from the Adi
Shankara, passed down through Shantanand Saraswati,
and are included in the supreme scripture of the
Sri Vidya, the Saundaryalahari, we can conclude
that the Mahesh Yogi got the TM bija mantras
from his Master, Swami Brahmananda
Saraswati.

James Duffy and Billy Smith both seem to agree
with this.
P.N.
2012-08-31 20:07:11 UTC
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...the Bija mantras must be tantric in nature,
because how can you have a tantric meditation
if the mantras are not?
So, let's sum up.
then he is probably a Master of some
kind.

So, since the TM bija mantras came from the Adi
Shankara, passed down through Shantanand Saraswati,
and are included in the supreme scripture of the
Sri Vidya, the Saundaryalahari, we can conclude
that the Mahesh Yogi got the TM bija mantras
from his Master, Swami Brahmananda

But we also know that Adi Sankara came from south india, that is the home
the dravidian culture right, I am mistaken by saying that religious symbols
such as "yantras" are from south india







Saraswati.

James Duffy and Billy Smith both seem to agree
with this.
p***@gmail.com
2012-09-14 15:23:55 UTC
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According to the Sage Patanjali, Raja Yoga has nothing to
do with 'union with the gods', but has everything to do
with 'isolation from prakriti', that is, the 'cessation of
the fluctuations of the mind-stuff'.

To Patanjali, the 'Royal Yoga' is the attainment of freedom,
based on the sheer willpower of the individual. The Sage
Kapila said that success in attaing freedom from suffering
is found in individual willpower to knowledge; individual
freedom is not the result of any source of power outside
one's own body-mind.

It is obvious, to even a casual seeker, that the term 'god'
and 'yoga' are contradictory. You can't have freewill and
be under the power of another; that would be a contradiction
in terms, would it not?

So, we are either free or we are not; if free, then there is
no need for yoga practice. If we are not free, then by what
means are we to free ourselves? It's that simple - there
is either other-power or self-power.

"Confusion arises from erroneously identifying words,
objects, and ideas with one another; knowledge of the
cries of all creatures comes through perfect discipline of
the distinctions between them" (YS 3.17).

So, ask yourself 'who am I' and then look inside yourself
for the answer, inside your own mind, and apply common
sense and intelligence based on your own experience and
reasoning.

Now, having tested and known your Self by yourself, known
such to be wise and true, not by mere speculation, hearsay
or because you read it, overheard it or were told it, but
because you, yourself, having known it, experienced it,
and confirmed it, found it to be wise and true.

Then consider:

The origin of Buddhist and Hindu yogic and tantric
practices is Shamanism, a tradition which came to India
about 10,000 years ago. This tradition, called Sramana in
Sanskrit, was revived by the historical Buddha who was
called Shakya the Muni, the first historical yogin in
India.

He advocated yoga and meditation which he equated with
an eight-fold path, i.e. a systematic, verifiable,
technique for self-culture. Not for nothing is the Buddha
depicted in Indian iconography as sitting underneath a
rose apple tree with his eyes closed!

The first writing in India appears on an Ashokan pillar
at Sarnath, the Kalinga Edict. So popular was the Buddha
in ancient India that he was drafted into the Hindu
pantheon to become the ninth incarnation of Mahavishnu,
one of four humans, not counting a dwarf!

Why do you think the cow is now sacred in India?

According to Swami Ageananda Bharati, it is clear that
the Buddhist tantras preceeded the Hindu tantras, and
hence, yogic practices are tantric in nature, e.g. the
non-Vedic practices such as yoga, mudra, dhyana, mantra,
yantra, dharani, puja, pradakshina; and monasticism,
ahimsa, instruction by sutra, relic worship, edifice
architecture, etc., etc.

Yogic practices and thus yogins, and yogic practice, is
firmly rooted in the teachings of Shakya and the Sramanas
such as Natatputra.

According to the teachings of the Shakya, the 33 Gods,
such as Lord Brahma, Prajapati, Mahavishnu, etc. may
exist as mental mind-constructs, but they are not
'things-in-themselves', that is, the gods concieved by
humans do not have their 'own nature', apart from and
separate from prakriti and the five evolutes and the
conditions set by the activity of the three gunas.

The gods, if they exist, are subject to the same laws of
karma as humans, and when their store of karma runs out
they will experience rebirth just like you and I.

According to the law of cause and effect, whatever goes
up must come down - that is, human excrement always flows
down stream - the second law of thermodynamics.

The Shakya, Patanjali, Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhva,
Nimbarka, Chaitanya, and Vallabah and Maharishi all agree
on this.

In contrast to the gods, a Yogin, that is, one who has
attained Freedom and Immortality, has broken the chain
that binds him or her to the law of karma: a Yogin is
free, liberated, that is, he has attained 'Siddha Loka';
he is a fully realized master of his own Self.

A Yogin is not bound by time, neither is he bound by the
restrictions of caste or religious conventions. A Yogin,
having mastered himself, by himself, does not see ritual
acts as the saving grace, yet he acts, due to the
propensities still functioning within his mortal coil.

A Yogin is liberated while yet living, a 'jivan mukti'.
Being liberated, a Yogin is not bound by the notion of
duality, thinking, "I do this, this is my body, this is
my soul, this is my self..." etc.

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